1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA

3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH ; COOK STREET DIVISION

4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE , JUDGE

5

6

7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )

8 CALIFORNIA , )

9 Plaintiff , )

10 -vs- ) No. 1133603

11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )

12 Defendant. )

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15

16

17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

18

19 WEDNESDAY, MARCH 9, 2005

20

21 8:30 A.M.

22

23 (PAGES 1398 THROUGH 1525 )

24

25

26

27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR , CRR, CSR #3304

28 BY : Official Court Reporter

1398

1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2

3
For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney
-and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN,
Sr . Deputy District Attorney
6 -and-
GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr . Deputy District Attorney
1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara , California 93101

9

10

11 For Defendant: COLLINS , MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU
BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and-
SUSAN C. YU , ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East , Suite 700
Los Angeles, California 90067
14
-and-
15
SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER , ESQ.
233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara , California 93101

18 -and-

19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK
BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN , ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs , California 90670
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1399

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3 Note:

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I N D E X

Mr . Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index . Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index.
Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index. Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
Mr . Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr . Oxman is listed as “O” on index .

9 PLAINTIFF’S
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
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11 ARVIZO, Star David 1452-S 1467-M

12 1476-S
(Further) 13

14 ARVIZO, Gavin-Anton 1477 -S 15
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1400

1 E X H I B I T S

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FOR IN

DEFENDANT’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID. 4

5 5002 DVD entitled “Neverland Channel
Demo” 1419 1419
6
5003 DVD entitled “Michael Jackson
7 and Gavin, Neverland , 9600 ” 1426 1426

8 5002 Various cards 1442 1443
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1401

1 THE COURT : You may proceed .

2 MR . MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.

3 Q. Star, the day that your family left

4 Neverland with Jesus , do you remember that day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the driver ‘s name was Jesus Salas,

7 right ?

8 A. I didn’t know his last name.

9 Q. Okay. Were you with your mother that day ?

10 A. That entire day?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No .

13 Q. Were you with your mother part of that day?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you with your mother when she went into

16 Los Olivos and had a body wax that day ?

17 A. I don ‘t remember that happening.

18 Q. Okay. So you don ‘t know about that ?

19 A. No .

20 Q. Okay. Do you recall being at Neverland

21 around February 24th , 2003 ?

22 A. I don ‘t know any of the dates .

23 Q. Okay. Do you remember that your family went

24 for a dental appointment?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And the dental appointment was with a Dr.

27 Seamont, correct?

28 A. I don ‘t remember the doctor’s name, but he

1402

1 was a dentist.

2 Q. Okay. You, your mother , Gavin went to the

3 dentist, right ?

4 A. Just me and my brother.

5 Q. Pardon me. You and your brother ?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was your mother there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Three of you, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Davellin wasn’t there, right?

12 A. Yes, she went back to the ranch.

13 Q. Okay. How did you get to the dentist’s?

14 A. By car.

15 Q. Do you know who drove you?

16 A. A guy named Joe.

17 Q. Okay. Was he working at Neverland?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And whose car was it; do you know?

20 A. It was the cook’s car.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. It ‘s a van.

23 Q. Okay. And if you know, where was the

24 dentist’s office?

25 A. I don ‘t know.

26 Q. Okay. Was it nearby , to your knowledge?

27 A. We just drove there at night.

28 Q. Drove there at night . Okay.

1403

1 And your mother wanted the dentist to remove

2 Gavin ‘s braces , right?

3 A. And also mine.

4 Q. And your braces, too ?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did the dentist remove your braces?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did he remove Gavin’s braces?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And the driver dropped you all off at

11 the dentist ‘s office , right?

12 A. No , he stood there with us .

13 Q. Stood there with you in the dentist ‘s

14 office?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In the lobby? Or was he with you when you

17 were having your braces removed?

18 A. He was there standing next to us .

19 Q. When you had your braces removed ?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Who paid for that dental visit; do

22 you know ?

23 A. I don ‘t know.

24 Q. Okay. Did your mother tell the dentist to

25 polish your teeth ; do you know?

26 A. It was a long time ago.

27 Q. Don’t remember that?

28 A. No .

1404

1 Q. Okay. Do you recall the dentist and his

2 assistant asking you and your brother not to go into

3 the dental supplies?

4 A. That was long — it was long ago . I don’t

5 remember .

6 Q. Okay. Were there phones in the dentist’s

7 office?

8 A. No .

9 Q. Didn’t see any ?

10 A. There was probably some at the front desk .

11 Q. Did you ever call your mother asking you to

12 use the phone?

13 A. No .

14 Q. Okay. Let me get back to the grand jury

15 transcript. Okay ?

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Do you recall telling the Santa Barbara

18 Grand Jury that the first time you saw Mr . Jackson

19 inappropriately touch your brother, that your

20 brother was looking out towards the far wall ?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what do you mean by that?

23 A. If you’re looking at the bed –

24 Q. Oh .

25 A. – like the picture we saw earlier –

26 Q. Sure.

27 A. – he was facing to the right .

28 Q. Okay. So correct me if I’m wrong, you said

1405

1 Mr . Jackson was lying flat , right?

2 A. Yes, on his back.

3 Q. And he appeared to be sleeping or –

4 A. Who?

5 Q. Mr . Jackson appeared to be sleeping ,

6 correct?

7 A. No . No.

8 Q. Didn’t appear to be sleeping?

9 A. He had his eyes closed, but he was

10 masturbating.

11 Q. Okay. So his eyes are closed . You say

12 Mr . Jackson is masturbating, you say your brother is

13 turned towards the far wall –

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. – right ? And you’re saying Mr. Jackson has

16 his arm over your brother turned towards the far

17 wall, right ?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Mr. Jackson is moving his hand, right ?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, when you were speaking to the grand

22 jury, you said there was vodka around, right ?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Well, if you went up the stairs, there ‘s no

25 light over the bed, and you only see what you see

26 for a few seconds , how do you see vodka?

27 A. The light from the stairwell, it wasn’t just

28 one light. It was like two lights or something like

1406

1 that. But it was bright enough to shine into the

2 room.

3 Q. Okay. So you see all of this in a few

4 seconds, with all the lights out over the bed,

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now, did your mother ever complain to

8 you that she wanted to leave the ranch ?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know about when that was?

11 A. No . I don’t know exactly.

12 Q. Do you remember telling the Santa Barbara

13 Grand Jury when you were asked the question, “Star ,

14 while you were at the ranch, did you ever have any

15 discussions with your mother about the subject of

16 her wanting to leave the ranch?” and your answer

17 was, “No “?

18 A. I remember her saying it to me. Probably

19 didn’t even remember at that time.

20 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show

21 you what you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury?

22 A. You told me what I said .

23 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to show

24 you the transcript?

25 A. Okay.

26 MR . MESEREAU: May I approach , Your Honor ?

27 THE COURT : Yes .

28 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to

1407

1 see that page of transcript?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what

4 you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury under oath?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Your answer to the question was “No ,”

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, but probably at that time I didn’t

9 remember .

10 Q. At that time you didn’t remember ?

11 A. Yes. Probably . Yes .

12 Q. So your memory ‘s better now than it was when

13 you testified before the Santa Barbara Grand Jury?

14 A. No , after you testify, you remember some

15 things that you didn ‘t say ; that you forgot to say .

16 Q. Okay. So your memory is better today than

17 it was March 29th , 2004 , right?

18 MR . SNEDDON : Object as argumentative, Your

19 Honor .

20 THE COURT : Sustained .

21 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Did you ever talk to your

22 brother or sister about leaving the ranch ?

23 A. No .

24 Q. Just another question about the door leading

25 up to the stairwell to Michael’s bedroom. You were

26 asked questions about that while you were in front

27 of the Santa Barbara Grand Jury, correct?

28 A. Okay.

1408

1 Q. You were asked questions by the prosecution?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you remember being asked the

4 following question: “Now, on both occasion — on

5 the first occasion, you said the door was sort of

6 locked and it came loose. On the second occasion,

7 can you tell us whether or not that door was open or

8 closed?”

9 And your answer was, “It was open. Well,

10 the door was closed, but it was unlocked.”

11 Why did you begin by saying, “It was open “?

12 A. Like the lock wasn’t locked.

13 Q. Your answer began with the words , “It was

14 open.”

15 A. Yeah. The door –

16 Q. Was it open ?

17 A. If it was unlocked, yes .

18 Q. Okay. So you didn’t mean the door was open.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You just meant it was unlocked?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. You told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury

23 that the first time you saw Michael Jackson

24 inappropriately touching your brother, you had about

25 five or six seconds, and the second time three or

26 four seconds, right?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And you told them both times the light was

1409

1 out above the bed ?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, on both of these occasions that you’ve

4 described as Mr. Michael Jackson inappropriately

5 touching your brother, did your brother ever move?

6 A. No .

7 Q. Do you know someone named Kiki –

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. – who works at Neverland? Who’s Kiki ?

10 A. She’s a — I don’t know what her — she’s a

11 house -cleaning lady.

12 Q. Did you have a dispute with her?

13 A. No . We’re friends.

14 Q. Okay. You’re friends to this day?

15 A. I don ‘t know. I haven’t talked to her .

16 Q. Okay. When did you last see her ?

17 A. At Neverland.

18 Q. Pardon me?

19 A. At Neverland.

20 Q. Do you know when you last spoke to her ?

21 A. At Neverland.

22 Q. Okay. So that ‘s quite a while ago, right ?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury that

25 on a flight coming back from Miami, Dr . Farshshian

26 was facing Michael Jackson , right?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. So he would have been facing Michael Jackson

1410

1 when you claim Michael started licking your

2 brother’s hair , right?

3 A. No , my mom was — she was turned around most

4 of the time .

5 Q. No , I’m talking about Dr. Farshshian.

6 A. Oh , yes.

7 Q. He was facing Michael Jackson the whole

8 time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, you never reported either of

11 these two times you claim Mr. Jackson was

12 inappropriately touching your brother, right ?

13 MR . SNEDDON : I’m going to object as vague

14 as to time.

15 MR . MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it. He’s

16 right .

17 Q. You didn ‘t immediately go to your mother and

18 report that , did you , when you saw it happen ?

19 A. No .

20 Q. You didn ‘t immediately go to your father and

21 report it, right?

22 A. My dad wasn ‘t there.

23 Q. You didn ‘t immediately tell Davellin about

24 it , right?

25 A. No .

26 Q. Okay. And you say you never slept in the

27 theater, right ?

28 A. Yes.

1411

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. Only my sister and Marie Nicole did .

3 Q. Okay. But you didn’t?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. “Yes” means you never slept there, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. When your father was with you at

8 Neverland, did you ever sleep in Michael Jackson’s

9 room?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How many times ?

12 A. Once.

13 Q. That was the first time you visited

14 Neverland, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And every other time your father was there,

17 you didn ‘t sleep in Michael’s room, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But you’re saying the first time you visited

20 Neverland, your father let you sleep in Michael ‘s

21 room?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was your mother there on that trip?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did your mother let you sleep in Michael’s

26 room?

27 A. She was probably with my sister. We just

28 asked our dad.

1412

1 Q. Well, you all had dinner in the main house

2 that night, right ?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there a discussion at the dinner table

5 about whether or not you and Gavin could sleep in

6 Michael Jackson’s room?

7 A. No .

8 Q. Okay. Did your mother at any time when she

9 was at Neverland ever ask you where you were

10 sleeping in the main house ?

11 A. I don ‘t remember. I don’t remember .

12 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the Santa

13 Barbara Grand Jury that your mother never asked you

14 one time where you were sleeping in the main house ?

15 A. I don ‘t know if I did.

16 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

17 show you the page from the grand jury transcript?

18 A. Okay.

19 MR . MESEREAU: May I, Your Honor ?

20 THE COURT : Yes .

21 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to

22 look at that page of the grand jury transcript?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what

25 you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury?

26 A. Yes. I said, “I think so. I don’t

27 remember ,” on the transcript.

28 Q. Well, you said in response to the question,

1413

1 “Did your mother ever ask you where you were

2 sleeping inside the main house?” You said, “No .”

3 A. And right below it, it says, “I think so. I

4 don’t remember .”

5 Q. Do you know , or not?

6 A. No .

7 Q. It says, “Did you ever have a conversation

8 with” –

9 And you go, “Wait . I think so. I don ‘t

10 remember .”

11 Is that what you’re referring to ?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. But you ‘re not sure if you did?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You never did at the dinner table, though ?

16 A. No .

17 Q. Well, then we went further , Star . It says

18 you said , “No,” and you said, “I think so .”

19 “Let me ask the question again: Did your

20 mother ever talk with you about where you slept

21 inside the main house? 22 “A. No.”
23 A. But I don’t think so . I don’t really

24 remember .

25 Q. Okay. You don ‘t remember saying that to the

26 grand jury, or you don’t remember if you talked to

27 your mom about it ?

28 A. I don ‘t remember if I talked to my mom about

1414

1 it .

2

MR . MESEREAU: Okay. I think I’ve already

3 done so, Your Honor, but I think I’d like to read

4 that portion of the grand jury –

5 THE COURT : Give me that citation . I have

6 the transcript now.

7 MR . MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. It ‘s page

8 1585. Actually, let me start before that . It’s

9 page 1584, lines 22 to 28, and page 1585, lines 1

10 to 6.

11 MR . SNEDDON : The second page , how far did

12 you end up?

13 THE COURT : Do you have a volume?

14 MR . MESEREAU: Yes, I think I do . It would

15 be Volume 6. No, it ‘s Volume 7.

16 THE COURT : I have it . Thank you .

17 MR . MESEREAU: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor.

18 “Q. Did your mother ever ask you where you

19 were sleeping inside the main house?

20 “A. No.

21 “Q. Did you ever have a conversation with –

22 “A. Wait. I think so. I don’t remember .

23 “Q. I’m sorry?

24 “A. I think so. I don ‘t remember.

25 “Q. I don ‘t?

26 “A. I think so. I don ‘t remember.

27 “Q. You said ‘No,’ and you said, ‘I think

28 so.’ Let me ask the question again: Did your

1415

1 mother ever talk with you about where you slept

2 inside the main house? 3 “A. No.”
4 Q. Do you remember you told the Santa Barbara

5 Grand Jury that you saw Michael Jackson touching

6 your brother a lot?

7 A. Probably . I don’t remember.

8 Q. You said he would try to fix your brother ‘s

9 shirt . Do you remember that?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. You said he would be touching him a lot,

12 right ?

13 A. I don ‘t remember.

14 Q. You said , “He would, like, fix his shirt.”

15 Do you remember that ?

16 A. Not really.

17 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if

18 I just show you that page of the transcript?

19 A. Sure.

20 MR . MESEREAU: May I, Your Honor ?

21 THE COURT : Yes .

22 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to

23 look at those pages?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do they refresh your recollection about what

26 you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Okay. You were asked the question, “He

1416

1 would be touching him a lot?”

2 “A. Yeah.

3 “Q. Not his genitals, not his penis?

4 “A. I never saw that.”

5 A. At the table.

6 Q. “I saw it in the paper.”

7 A. I saw it on paper ?

8 Q. That’s what you said , right?

9 A. I don ‘t know what I meant by saying not on

10 paper .

11 Q. Now, at the time you claim you watched

12 Mr . Jackson in his bedroom inappropriately touch

13 your brother, you were approximately five -feet-two ;

14 is that right?

15 A. Sure. Yeah . I don’t — I don’t remember

16 how exactly — how tall I was .

17 Q. You told the grand jury you were five-feet-

18 two, right?

19 A. I was just guessing.

20 Q. Okay. Do you think you were five-feet -two?

21 A. I don ‘t know.

22 Q. Do you have any idea ?

23 A. (Shakes head from side to side.)

24 Q. And you told the Santa Barbara Grand Jury on

25 both of the occasions when you claim you saw

26 Mr . Jackson in bed with your brother, you never went

27 to the top of the stairs, right?

28 A. Yes.

1417

1 Q. And you claim that both occasions when you

2 saw Mr. Jackson and your brother , they were not

3 under the sheets, right ?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You said they were on top of a blanket ,

6 right ?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. MESEREAU : At this time , Your Honor , I’d

9 like to play a video , DVD. It would be –

10 MR . SANGER: Your Honor , if I may, just for

11 bookkeeping purposes , we’d like to have marked for

12 identification next in order a video that ‘s

13 entitled , “Neverland Channel Demo.”

14 BAILIFF CORTEZ : Can ‘t hear you.

15 MR . SANGER: Oh. Sorry .

16 I’d like to mark — to mark next in order a

17 video or CD that is labeled “Neverland Channel

18 Demo.” We have discuss ed this with the District

19 Attorney , Mr. Sneddon. He has no objection to our

20 playing it.

21 THE COURT : What’s the exhibit number, then?

22 THE CLERK: It ‘s 5003.

23 MR . SANGER: Okay . Thank you .

24 THE BAILIFF : Do you want it on the box?

25 MR . SANGER: And if it’s acceptable to the

26 Court , we’ll play it at this time.

27 THE BAILIFF : Are you playing it out of your

28 computer or –

1418

1 MR . SANGER: We’re going to play it .

2 THE BAILIFF : It’s “Input 4.”

3 THE COURT : So it’s admitted into evidence .

4 There ‘s no objection ?

5 MR . SNEDDON : There is none, Your Honor.

6 THE CLERK : I’m sorry , Judge. That should be

7 Exhibit 5002. I skipped one.

8 MR . SANGER: Your Honor , I think we need the

9 screen.

10 THE COURT : You need “Input ” –

11 THE BAILIFF : “4.”

12 THE COURT : “4”? Are you ready?

13 MR . SANGER: I hope so.

14 (Whereupon, a DVD , Defendant’s Exhibit 5002,

15 was played for the Court and jury.)

16 MR . SANGER: Your Honor , you can turn the

17 screen off.

18 THE COURT : Thank you .

19 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star, you had asked

20 Michael Jackson to help you be in a video like that?

21 A. No .

22 Q. You never asked Michael Jackson to help you

23 do that video?

24 A. No .

25 Q. Your brother wanted Michael Jackson to help

26 him do a video also, didn’t he?

27 A. I can ‘t speak for my brother.

28 Q. Okay. You never heard your brother ask

1419

1 Michael Jackson that ?

2 A. No .

3 Q. So as far as you know, Michael Jackson knew

4 nothing about this video you were putting together

5 at Neverland?

6 A. No . He asked me if I wanted to be in it,

7 and I said, “Yes.”

8 Q. And you told him you wanted to narrate a

9 video , correct ?

10 A. No . I just said, “Okay .”

11 Q. You never told Michael Jackson you wanted to

12 be the narrator?

13 A. No .

14 Q. Never told Michael Jackson you wanted to be

15 the center of attention on the Neverland Channel

16 video , right?

17 A. No .

18 Q. Okay. So Michael Jackson, in your mind, was

19 not doing you a favor when he helped you make this

20 video ?

21 A. No .

22 Q. Okay. And in your mind , Michael Jackson was

23 not doing Gavin a favor when he helped you make this

24 video , right?

25 A. We didn’t have no one to interview, so we

26 interviewed my brother.

27 Q. No one to interview. You had kids

28 everywhere, didn’t you?

1420

1 A. No , not at that time . They brought them.

2 Q. To your knowledge , did your mother know you

3 were making this video?

4 A. I don ‘t know if she did or not.

5 Q. Never told her ?

6 A. Long time ago. I don’t know if she did or

7 not.

8 Q. But you don ‘t recall ever telling your

9 mother that you and Gavin were going to make this

10 video at Neverland?

11 A. My dad knew .

12 Q. Did your mother know ?

13 A. I don ‘t know. I can ‘t speak for my mom.

14 Q. Do you remember ever telling your mom,

15 “We’re going to make a video at Neverland “?

16 A. No . I don’t remember telling her.

17 Q. Do you think she knew about it before you

18 made it?

19 A. I don ‘t know.

20 MR . SNEDDON : Object as asked and answered.

21 MR . MESEREAU: I’ll withdraw it. I’ll

22 withdraw .

23 Q. Do you ever recall Gavin telling your

24 mother, “We ‘re going to make a video at Neverland”?

25 A. I can ‘t speak for my brother, and I can’t

26 speak for my mom.

27 Q. I’m just asking what you heard. Okay? You

28 never heard him discuss it with your mother, right ?

1421

1 A. No .

2 Q. After this video was made, did you ever show

3 it to your mother ?

4 A. We never got a copy, so I was unable to show

5 it to my mom.

6 Q. Did you ever watch it at Neverland?

7 A. No . After we recorded it, we never saw it.

8 Q. So you’ve never seen it since you made it ,

9 right ?

10 A. We saw it at Hamid’s house , while we were

11 about to do the rebuttal.

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I found it at Hamid’s house.

14 Q. Well, but you were there with your mother

15 then.

16 A. When?

17 Q. At Hamid ‘s. That ‘s where you filmed the

18 rebuttal video .

19 A. My mom, when I got there, she wasn’t there.

20 She hasn ‘t — well, she didn’t arrive at that time

21 when I watched it . Vinnie was still picking her up

22 from St. Andrews.

23 Q. Okay. So who watched the video at Hamid’s

24 house ?

25 A. I think it was me , my brother , and probably

26 my sister.

27 Q. And you never wanted your mother to see it?

28 A. I didn’t care if she saw it or not.

1422

1 Q. Okay. Okay . Gavin saw it at Hamid ‘s house?

2 A. Okay, yes.

3 Q. And you saw it at Hamid ‘s house?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How do you know the video was at Hamid ‘s

6 house ?

7 A. We were hooking up the Play Station to play

8 “Need for Speed 2,” and we saw it above his DVD

9 player.

10 Q. Okay. And that’s the first time you had

11 seen it, right ?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And were you excited when you made

14 the video?

15 A. I was kind of tired.

16 Q. You were kind of tired when you made this

17 video ?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The Neverland Channel?

20 A. Okay. Whatever you call it.

21 Q. Okay. So you weren’t too excited when you

22 made it, right ?

23 A. I was kind of sleepy .

24 Q. Okay. And were you excite d when it finally

25 got put together?

26 A. What do you mean?

27 Q. Well, when it finally was completed , were

28 you excited ?

1423

1 A. At the end of the day?

2 Q. Pardon me?

3 A. I don ‘t –

4 Q. I’m sorry, let me just rephrase the

5 question . I’ll withdraw it.

6 When this video was completed , how old were

7 you?

8 A. When we record ed it?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Fourth grade.

11 Q. Fourth grade?

12 A. Yeah, I had long hair in fourth grade.

13 Q. I’m sorry, pardon me ?

14 A. I had long hair in fourth grade.

15 Q. Okay. How old do you think you were when

16 you made this video?

17 A. I don ‘t know. I was probably about 10 or 18 11 .
19 Q. And my question to you is, were you excited

20 to narrate a video like this at Neverland ?

21 A. No . I was sleepy .

22 Q. Okay. All the time?

23 A. What? During that — no, I slept really

24 late last night. Well, that night.

25 Q. That night you were sleepy . When you found

26 out you had narrated a video called “The Neverland

27 Channel” at Michael Jackson’s ranch , my question to

28 you is, were you excited about it?

1424

1 A. And I said no.

2 Q. Okay. All right.

3 MR . SANGER: Your Honor , with the Court’s

4 permission, we ‘re going to ask to play Exhibit 340 ,

5 which is already in evidence.

6 THE COURT : All right . That’s a DVD ?

7 MR . SANGER: Yes, sir.

8 Your Honor, just for the record, there are

9 two disks in 340, Disk 1 and 2. And I’m going to

10 put Disk 1 in at this time .

11 MR . SNEDDON : Your Honor, can I ask a

12 procedural question before we begin this?

13 THE COURT : Yes .

14 MR . SNEDDON : Since we’ve already seen it ,

15 is this a situation where we’re going to play a

16 portion of it and ask questions about it, or are we

17 just going to look at the whole video again, which I

18 think would be repetitive?

19 MR . MESEREAU: Excuse me.

20 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel

21 table .)

22 MR . SANGER: Oh, I’m sorry .

23 MR . MESEREAU: I can answer that question .

24 We are going to — next we ‘re going to play the

25 rebuttal video , with your permission, Your Honor,

26 and we’re going to stop it and ask questions about

27 it , as we go, of the witness, yes.

28 MR . SANGER: Sorry.

1425

1 THE BAILIFF : You need to use your

2 microphone.

3 MR . SANGER: We’re going to — we had a

4 technical problem . We’re going to ask , then , that a

5 DVD that ‘s entitled, “Michael Jackson and Gavin ,

6 Neverland 9-6-0-0,” that that be marked as defense

7 next in order, and we would like to play that. We

8 have discussed this with the District Attorney, and

9 he has no objection to the foundation or to us

10 playing it.

11 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel

12 table .)

13 MR . SNEDDON : Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah , we

14 talked about it. That’s fine .

15 THE COURT : This one would be 5003, then.

16 MR . MESEREAU: Your Honor, this I would play

17 and then ask questions after it. The rebuttal video

18 I would be asking questions throughout it . Thank

19 you.

20 THE COURT : There’s no objection to it going

21 in evidence , then ?

22 MR . SNEDDON : No, Your Honor, there is not.

23 THE COURT : It’s admitted.

24 MR . SANGER: Just before we start….

25 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel

26 table .)

27 MR . SANGER: Okay . Are you ready?

28 (Whereupon, a DVD , Defendant’s Exhibit 5003,

1426

1 was played for the Court and jury.)

2 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star, have you seen that

3 video before?

4 A. I think so, yes.

5 Q. In fact, your mother showed that video to

6 the three social workers when they came to Jay

7 Jackson’s apartment to interview her about her

8 fitness as a mother and what Michael Jackson had

9 done, correct?

10 A. I don ‘t remember that.

11 Q. Well, she showed that video to the social

12 workers to let them know that Michael Jackson had

13 tried to help heal your brother from cancer, right ?

14 A. Are you telling me this , or –

15 Q. I’m asking a question.

16 A. I don ‘t know.

17 Q. Okay. Do you remember seeing it with the

18 three social workers ?

19 MR . SNEDDON : I’m going to object. Asked

20 and answered.

21 THE COURT : Sustained .

22 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: When you appeared in this

23 video , your family had asked Michael Jackson to help

24 them with Gavin, who they thought was dying of

25 cancer, right?

26 A. I never heard my family say that .

27 Q. Never heard anyone in your family say,

28 “Michael , would you please help us, our son is dying

1427

1 of cancer”?

2 A. Probably did. I wasn’t there .

3 Q. Okay. Well , it’s your understanding that

4 Michael Jackson met your brother because your

5 brother was at Kaiser, in the hospital , and wanted

6 to talk to Michael Jackson , right?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. Is that your understanding ?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. Okay. And your entire family wanted to come

11 to Neverland and asked Michael if he would help them

12 with your brother , who was dying of cancer, right?

13 MR . SNEDDON : I’m going to object. Assumes

14 a fact not in evidence.

15 THE COURT : Sustained .

16 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Ever hear your mother ask

17 Michael Jackson to please help your family because

18 Gavin has terminal cancer, or words to that effect ?

19 A. No .

20 Q. Do you remember hearing Michael Jackson talk

21 about Pac Man and how you can eat up cancer cells?

22 A. No .

23 Q. Never heard that?

24 A. No .

25 Q. Okay. Ever hear Michael Jackson encourage

26 your brother to get better , that he could survive

27 this?

28 A. When?

1428

1 Q. One time ?

2 A. No , I said when?

3 Q. Anytime.

4 A. Probably told him over the phone .

5 Q. Pardon me?

6 A. Probably told him over the phone . I don’t

7 know.

8 Q. To your knowledge , Michael Jackson spent a

9 lot of time with your brother at Neverland trying to

10 encourage him to beat cancer, right ?

11 MR . SNEDDON : Objection , Your Honor . Calls

12 for facts not in evidence; lack of foundation.

13 THE COURT : Overruled .

14 He ‘s asking your knowledge , if you know

15 that.

16 THE WITNESS : Michael was only there with

17 Gavin a couple times while he was at Neverland. He

18 wasn’t there the whole entire cancer.

19 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Okay. I didn’t ask you

20 that. Let me just ask the question again , because

21 you probably didn ‘t understand it.

22 To your knowledge –

23 THE COURT : Counsel, he answered your

24 question . Please ask another question .

25 MR . MESEREAU: Okay.

26 THE COURT : I don’t want you commenting like

27 that.

28 MR . MESEREAU: I apologize , Your Honor . I

1429

1 withdraw that comment.

2 Q. When did you last see this particular video,

3 if you know ?

4 A. I don ‘t remember, but it was a long time

5 ago.

6 MR . MESEREAU: At this point, Your Honor,

7 we ‘d like to play the rebuttal video, which is in

8 evidence .

9 THE COURT : All right .

10 MR . MESEREAU: Thank you.

11 MR . SANGER: For the record, that would be

12 Exhibit 340 and we’re going to start with Tape 1

13 of 2. Actually, it says Tape 1 of 2, but it would

14 be DVD 1 of 2.

15 THE BAILIFF : I’m not sure if that’s –

16 MR . SANGER: That ‘s on the film.

17 THE BAILIFF : Oh.

18 MR . SANGER: It will be over in a second.

19 Sorry .

20 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

21 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

22 jury.)

23 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Now, Star, when you made

24 those comments , were you telling the truth?

25 A. No .

26 Q. Were you lying ?

27 A. I was actually talking about my stepdad.

28 Q. You weren’t talking about Michael Jackson ?

1430

1 A. No ; how Jay stepped in and took over where

2 my dad left off.

3 Q. So when you said, “My first impression was

4 like a father. He actually seemed more

5 fatherly -like than my biological father. He –

6 there is — I just — that was my first impression

7 of Michael,” you were really talking about Jay

8 Jackson?

9 A. Yes, sir .

10 Q. Why did you use the name “Michael”?

11 A. Well, because he told us to say good things

12 only about — because he told us only to say good

13 things about Michael .

14 Q. Okay. So you really were referring to Jay

15 Jackson?

16 A. Exactly.

17 Q. I see . Okay.

18 We can keep going through.

19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

20 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

21 jury.)

22 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Now, Star, when you heard

23 your mother make those comments about Michael

24 Jackson, did you think she was talking about Jay

25 Jackson?

26 A. I wasn’t really listening. I was like

27 practically falling off my chair .

28 Q. So you didn ‘t really hear any of this?

1431

1 A. No , I was really sleepy. It was like 4:00

2 in the morning .

3 Q. So you really don ‘t know what your mother

4 was talking about ? 5 A. No . I –
6 Q. Okay. We can keep going.

7 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD , People’s

8 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

9 jury.)

10 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Now, you said — Davellin

11 says about Michael, “He gives Gavin advice,” and

12 then you say, “He helps me with homework,” right?

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. Was that the truth?

15 A. No . We didn’t even have homework.

16 Q. Was that a lie ?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We can keep going .

19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

20 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

21 jury.)

22 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star, do you remember

23 making those comments about Michael Jackson?

24 A. Sure.

25 Q. Were you telling the truth ?

26 A. No , not really .

27 Q. Were you lying ?

28 A. Yeah. On there, yes .

1432

1 Q. So you were lying .

2 So when you said Michael lets you feel like

3 his son, you weren’t telling the truth ?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And when you said he lets you call him

6 “father,” you weren’t telling the truth?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. “And we call him ‘father’ and he calls us

9 ‘son,’” you weren ‘t telling the truth?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you say , “He helps us with basically

12 anything we ask and we love him.” When you said

13 that, you weren’t telling the truth , right?

14 A. Repeat it.

15 Q. “He helps us with basically anything we ask

16 and we love him.” You’re saying you weren’t telling

17 the truth?

18 A. Yes. The only reason why we did that is

19 because Dieter told us to.

20 Q. So everybody just memorized all these lines?

21 A. I just said whatever came to my head.

22 Q. Okay. Okay .

23 A. I was trying to get out of there . I was

24 kind of tired.

25 Q. I understand. So , so far every statement

26 you’ve made is a lie , you’re saying , right?

27 A. Basically, yes .

28 MR . MESEREAU: Okay. We can keep going.

1433

1 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

2 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

3 jury.)

4 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star, you heard your

5 mother make those remarks, right ?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you think she was lying?

8 A. I wasn’t really paying attention .

9 Q. Pardon me?

10 A. Um , I don’t know.

11 Q. You don’t know , right?

12 A. Yeah, I can ‘t speak for her.

13 Q. I’m just asking what you thought . Did you

14 think your mother was telling lies when she made

15 that statement ?

16 A. I wasn’t really paying attention .

17 Q. Okay.

18 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

19 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

20 jury.)

21 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Now, Star, when you heard

22 your mother make the statement, “He claimed these

23 three little munchkins as his kids,” did you think

24 your mother was telling the truth?

25 A. Um , no.

26 Q. Did you think your mother was lying ?

27 A. No , she was doing what Dieter asked her to

28 do .

1434

1

2

3 do .

4

Q. Did you think she was lying?

A. No , she was doing what Dieter asked her to

Q. So you don’t think your mother was acting in

5 a spontaneous kind of way when she answered these

6 questions, right?

7 A. I don ‘t know. It was her emotions.

8 Q. Okay.

9 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

10 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

11 jury.)

12 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star, did you ever discuss

13 with your mother the idea that Michael Jackson would

14 be a father figure to you?

15 A. To me ?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. No .

18 Q. Did you ever discuss with your mother the

19 notion that Michael Jackson would be a father figure

20 to Gavin ?

21 A. No .

22 Q. Ever discuss with your mother the idea that

23 Michael Jackson would be a father figure for your

24 sister?

25 A. No .

26 Q. So you and your mother never talked about

27 Michael Jackson being any kind of a father figure at

28 all, right?

1435

1 A. Yes.

2 MR . MESEREAU: Okay. Keep going .

3 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

4 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

5 jury.)

6 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Now, Star, are you telling

7 the jury , under oath , you never heard Michael

8 Jackson ever mention anything about Pac Man to your

9 brother?

10 A. No . I was yawning in the video –

11 Q. Pardon me?

12 A. I don ‘t remember even hearing that.

13 Q. Okay.

14 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

15 Exhibit 340 , Disk 1, was played for the Court and

16 jury.)

17 MR . SANGER: Your Honor , that ‘s — actually,

18 that does that , and that’s the end of this tape , so

19 I’m going to stop it , if that ‘s all right .

20 THE COURT : Yes .

21 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star, you heard your

22 mother say all of her children want to be in movies.

23 Is that a true statement?

24 A. No , I don’t want to be in movies .

25 Q. So is your mother lying ?

26 A. No , she’s doing what Dieter told her to do.

27 Q. Okay. Okay . So as far as you know , none of

28 the children wanted to be in movies ; is that right ?

1436

1 MR . SNEDDON : Your Honor, I would object.

2 Assumes facts not in evidence .

3 THE COURT : Overruled .

4 You may answer .

5 THE WITNESS : What was the question again ?

6 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: As far as you know,

7 neither you , Gavin or Davellin ever wanted to be in

8 movies?

9 MR . SNEDDON : It’s compound now.

10 THE COURT : Sustained .

11 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: You’ve said you never

12 wanted to be in movies, right ?

13 A. Yes. I’m too shy to act.

14 THE COURT : You ‘re going to put in the other

15 disk?

16 MR . SANGER: I put in Disk 2, if that’s all

17 right , Your Honor .

18 THE COURT : Okay.

19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

20 Exhibit 340 , Disk 2, was played for the Court and

21 jury.)

22 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star, do you know what

23 your mother is referring to when she mentioned “gang

24 signs “?

25 A. Probably the guy behind the camera was doing

26 something.

27 Q. You say “probably .” Is that something you

28 thought at the time?

1437

1 A. At that time?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No . I was just thinking about sleep.

4 Q. Did you think your mother was talking about

5 a cameraman making gang signs ? Is that what she was

6 saying?

7 A. She was pointing at off camera, so it

8 couldn’t be the cameraman. It had to be someone

9 else.

10 Q. Okay. Let me just get this straight. You

11 think she was talking about the cameraman –

12 A. No , I know she was talking about not the

13 cameraman, but someone off camera.

14 Q. Making gang signs ?

15 A. They probably weren’t even doing gang signs.

16 He was probably doing a signal or something. I

17 don’t know.

18 Q. But I think what you ‘re saying is you don ‘t

19 know what she was referring to, right?

20 A. No .

21 Q. Now, was it your — are you telling the jury

22 that while all this was going on , your family was

23 being falsely imprisoned?

24 MR . SNEDDON : Objection . Argumentative,

25 Your Honor. It’s a legal conclusion using those

26 words .

27 THE COURT : Sustained .

28 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Do you feel that while

1438

1 this was all going on, your family was not free to

2 leave ?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And do you think the way your mother

5 was acting, that she was in fear ?

6 A. I don ‘t know. I can ‘t speak for her.

7 Q. Were you in fear?

8 A. I was just sleepy .

9 Q. Okay. All right.

10 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

11 Exhibit 340 , Disk 2, was played for the Court and

12 jury.)

13 THE COURT : Hold on, please . Take our break.

14 MR . MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

15 (Recess taken.)

16 THE COURT : Go ahead.

17 MR . MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor. Oops.

18 THE COURT : Do you want me to — are you

19 ready to continue with the film?

20 MR . MESEREAU: Yes, please , Your Honor .

21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

22 Exhibit 340 , Disk 2, was played for the Court and

23 jury.)

24 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star, the person who ‘s

25 doing the interview says, “Davellin , Star , when you

26 guys first went to the ranch, I’m sure you were

27 pretty down .”

28 When you first went to Neverland Ranch , were

1439

1 you pretty down?

2 A. The first ever time?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you were down because your brother was

6 ill, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR . MESEREAU: Keep going.

9 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

10 Exhibit 340 , Disk 2, was played for the Court and

11 jury.)

12 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Now, Star, when you made

13 that statement , were you telling the truth?

14 A. What was the statement?

15 Q. The statement was , “The first time before

16 our brother ever went to the ranch, he was always

17 sad, he was always crying, he was always just down

18 all the time. When he went to the ranch, he was

19 always happy. He was always playful. He was happy

20 again . He was cheerful , and it also gave him

21 something to look forward when we left .”

22 Was that a true statement?

23 A. It was kind of true, because my brother was

24 sad and — what’s the other word I used? Well, he

25 was sad and down, because he was going through a

26 life-threatening disease.

27 Q. And he was happy at the ranch , correct ?

28 A. Yes. In the beginning, yes.

1440

1 Q. Okay.

2 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

3 Exhibit 340 , Disk 2, was played for the Court and

4 jury.)

5 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: At this point, Star,

6 you’re trying to speak out , correct ?

7 A. No . I was just saying I was sleepy .

8 Q. Well, he said he can hear you , Star , right?

9 A. Yeah. I was complaining.

10 Q. Was it your understanding that this film was

11 supposed to be on a television show ?

12 A. No .

13 Q. Did you ever learn that this film was

14 supposed to appear on FOX Television?

15 A. No .

16 Q. Okay.

17 We can go forward .

18 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People ‘s

19 Exhibit 340 , Disk 2, was played for the Court and

20 jury.)

21 MR . MESEREAU: Your Honor, there ‘s a final

22 piece of evidence we ‘d like to use that the

23 prosecution wants to look at. It’s on DVD. It ‘s a

24 card on DVD , and I think — is it true you have

25 that?

26 MR . SNEDDON : No. You came up at the break

27 and asked me for something , and it’s locked up in

28 evidence at the sheriff ‘s department.

1441

1 MR . SANGER: Your Honor , we have it . I said

2 we ‘d show it to him. And we’re going to try to

3 use — we’re going to try to use the electronic

4 version, and then they’ll bring the actual piece of

5 evidence over later, and we can substitute that .

6 So with the Court ‘s indulgence, we need just

7 a minute for them to huddle over here, or somebody

8 to take a look at it , if that ‘s all right .

9 THE COURT : Go ahead.

10 MR . SNEDDON : Do you have it?

11 MR . SANGER: I have it right here. It ‘s on

12 the screen.

13 MR . SNEDDON : Oh, it ‘s on your computer.

14 MR . SANGER: Yeah .

15 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel

16 table .)

17 MR . SNEDDON : Judge, I have no objection to

18 them using that in lieu of the original for right

19 now, and we ‘ll get the original over here , if not

20 today , tomorrow.

21 THE COURT : All right . We will give it a

22 number now. So it will be 5004. And we’ll mark the

23 original when you bring it over.

24 MR . SANGER: Your Honor , I believe there are

25 three cards , if I’m not mistaken . But we can mark

26 them as a group as 5004 . We don ‘t have to give them

27 separate numbers, unless the Court wants to.

28 THE COURT : Okay. Well, let’s mark them,

1442

1 three cards , as a group , numbered 5004 .

2 MR . SANGER: May I walk around here ? I have

3 to hook the thing up to the screen. Is that all

4 right , Your Honor ?

5 THE COURT : Yes .

6 THE BAILIFF : It will be “Input 1.”

7 THE COURT : “Input 1,” okay .

8 THE BAILIFF : And Mr . Mesereau, can you hit

9 the “PC” button?

10 THE COURT : These are agreed they go in

11 evidence ? No objection to them going into evidence?

12 MR . SNEDDON : No, none whatsoever, Your

13 Honor .

14 THE COURT : All right . They’re admitted.

15 5004 is admitted.

16 MR . MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.

17 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Star –

18 THE BAILIFF : You need to hit “Black

19 Screen.”

20 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: – you have sent greeting

21 cards from time to time ?

22 A. Your microphone’s not on.

23 Q. Excuse me? You’re right.

24 THE COURT : They’re having trouble hearing

25 you.

26 MR . MESEREAU: You’re right.

27 Q. You have sent greeting cards from time to

28 time to people whom you asked for money, true?

1443

1 MR . SNEDDON : Object ; assumes facts not in

2 evidence .

3 THE COURT : Sustained .

4 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: The language that you hear

5 on that rebuttal tape is language similar to

6 language you have used in greeting cards to people

7 you were seeking money from, right?

8 A. We were never seeking –

9 MR . SNEDDON : Object , Your Honor . I object.

10 Assumes facts not in evidence .

11 MR . MESEREAU: I’ll start again.

12 Q. Do you know Louise Palanker?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How long have you known Louise Palanker?

15 A. Since the comedy camp.

16 Q. Are you still in touch with her?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When did you last talk to Louise Palanker ?

19 A. I think my sister talked to her. I haven ‘t

20 talked to her since — I don’t know exactly. But it

21 was — it was within this year. Well –

22 Q. You — I’m sorry.

23 A. It was within the last year.

24 Q. Okay. You sent Louise Palanker greeting

25 cards and you called her “Mommy,” correct ?

26 A. I don ‘t remember doing that.

27 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if you

28 see a greeting card that you signed ?

1444

1 A. Sure.

2 MR . SANGER: I take it Your Honor has it on

3 the one where –

4 THE COURT : I have it on “1.” Do you want me

5 to try it on “4”?

6 MR . SANGER: May as well.

7 THE COURT: That’s “4.”

8 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel

9 table .)

10 MR . SNEDDON : I have a suggestion.

11 THE COURT : Yes .

12 MR . SNEDDON : Since he’s only asking him to

13 refresh his recollection, just take the computer and

14 show it to him .

15 MR . MESEREAU: We ‘ve moved it into evidence,

16 Your Honor. I’d like the jury to see it, if we can.

17 THE COURT : It is in evidence.

18 THE BAILIFF : It will just be a minute .

19 THE COURT : Do you have a technician coming?

20 THE BAILIFF : We do.

21 THE COURT: There ‘s someone coming to help.

22 I remember when an attorney just had to be

23 able to come into court and talk .

24 (Laughter.)

25 THE COURT: Now they ‘re froze n if the

26 machine doesn’t work .

27 MR . SANGER: I understand there’s somebody

28 coming down in one second.

1445

1 THE COURT : Yes , somebody’s been –

2 MR . MESEREAU: I can ask a few questions in

3 the meantime, if you ‘d like, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT : That would be good .

5 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Do you know whether or not

6 Louise Palanker gave $20,000 to your family?

7 A. I know that she gave it to my dad, yeah.

8 Q. Do you know what the purpose for giving that

9 money was?

10 A. To fix my brother ‘s bedroom at my grandma ‘s

11 house , so he can live in it.

12 THE COURT : Would you like to wait just a

13 moment, so –

14 MR . MESEREAU: Sure.

15 THE COURT : It would be better to let the

16 technician….

17 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel

18 table .)

19 MR . SANGER: Oh, how about that?

20 Your Honor, I just learned something new.

21 THE BAILIFF : So everything is ready.

22 THE COURT : Yes . Thank you .

23 THE TECHNICIAN : No problem.

24 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: You asked Louise Palanker

25 for a computer , didn ‘t you ?

26 A. No . That’s not my writing .

27 Q. We ‘ll get to that . There’s some other

28 pages .

1446

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. Did you ever ask Louise Palanker for a

3 computer ?

4 A. Never .

5 Q. Are you aware of anyone else in your family

6 asking Louise for a computer?

7 A. No .

8 Q. Ever get a computer from Louise, to your

9 knowledge?

10 A. No .

11 Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you this card.

12 It says, “From your boys and girl, Louise Mommy .”

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It says, “You’re smiling when I’m happy and

16 you hug me when I’m hurt.” Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you call Louise “Mommy “?

19 A. Looks like my sister ‘s writing.

20 Q. Let me ask you if you called her “Mommy,”

21 ever?

22 A. No .

23 Q. Did you ever hear your sister or Gavin call

24 her “Mommy”?

25 A. No .

26 Q. Do you know why a card was sent to her that

27 said “Mommy “?

28 A. I don ‘t know.

1447

1 Q. Okay.

2 Let’s go to some other pages, if we can,

3 Bob. Thanks.

4 Now, who is in that picture?

5 A. Me , my brother , my sister.

6 Q. Okay. Do you know approximately when those

7 photos were taken ?

8 A. When my sister was in the Los Angeles

9 Explorers.

10 Q. Okay. Do you know about what year that is?

11 A. No .

12 Q. Okay. Okay . Let ‘s look at this , then .

13 Do you see the message at the bottom?

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. It says, “Dear Louise, I think of you every

16 second of my like (sic) and pray for every night,

17 every morning. I love you . I wish I can spend time

18 with you . Love, Star,” right ?

19 A. I misspelled “life.”

20 Q. That’s your writing, though, isn ‘t it?

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. Okay. The question I have is , you see a

23 message from Gavin and a message from Davellin,

24 right ?

25 A. Okay.

26 Q. And why is everybody calling her “Mommy”; do

27 you know ?

28 MR . SNEDDON : Your Honor, I’m going to

1448

1 object to that question .

2 MR . MESEREAU: Excuse me, I’ll rephrase it.

3 Q. Do you have any idea why the card is

4 addressed to “Mommy”?

5 A. “Mommy’s” not –

6 Q. Pardon me?

7 A. “Mommy’s” not in my letter .

8 Q. I’m asking about the card.

9 A. I don ‘t know what ‘s written on there.

10 Doesn ‘t look like my writing.

11 Q. Did you see the card before you wrote on it,

12 if you remember?

13 A. No .

14 Q. But did you refer to her as “Mommy” ever?

15 A. No .

16 MR . SNEDDON : Asked and answered , Your

17 Honor .

18 THE COURT: Sustained.

19 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Okay. Let’s go to the

20 next card. Okay. Now, this is another card .

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. It says, “Dear Louise, once I see you, my

23 day is wonderful. Louise, I miss you. I love you .

24 Every day I want to be with you. Thank you. I love

25 you. Love, Star.” Do you see that ?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Did you often send cards to Louise?

28 A. Not really.

1449

1 Q. Do you remember how many you might have

2 sent?

3 A. No .

4 Q. Okay. Keep going .

5 Do you see that card , Star ?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It says, “Our darling Louise, Wheezy.” Do

8 you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that says, “We dearly love you and care

11 about you. We love you to the moon and back .

12 Faith fully, devotedly, your friends , your family,

13 Davellin , David, Gavin, Janet , Star .” Do you see

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you used to refer to Louise as being in

17 your family ?

18 A. Not really. Just my brother probably did ,

19 because she was with my brother during the whole

20 cancer.

21 Q. The question I want to ask you is this : Did

22 you typically call people “family” that your mother

23 was seeking funds from?

24 A. My mom was never seeking funds from –

25 Q. She never did that with anybody?

26 A. No .

27 Q. Not Chris Tucker?

28 A. No .

1450

1 Q. Not Louise?

2 A. No . You can even ask Louise. My dad was

3 the one trying to seek funds from her.

4 Q. And your mother was never involved in that

5 at all?

6 A. No .

7 Q. How about with Jay Leno ?

8 A. I’ve never met Jay Leno in my life.

9 Q. Are you aware of your mother ever seeking

10 funds from him ?

11 A. No .

12 MR . MESEREAU: Okay. I have no further

13 questions.

14 THE COURT : Redirect?

15 Are you through with this exhibit?

16 MR . MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

17 THE COURT : Do you need it?

18 MR . SNEDDON : No, I don ‘t need it.

19 Your Honor, I’m going to need a moment to

20 get a couple of photographs from the clerk, if you

21 don’t mind.

22 THE COURT : All right .

23 MR . SANGER: Your Honor , while that ‘s

24 occurring, did the Court want to –

25 THE BAILIFF : You have to use the

26 microphone.

27 MR . SANGER: I’m sorry.

28 Did the Court want to have us lodge this DVD

1451

1 with the Court until the physical exhibits are here?

2 THE COURT : That would be a good idea.

3 MR . SANGER: All right.

4 THE COURT : Just temporarily. Temporary

5 Exhibit 5004.

6 MR . SANGER: Thank you.

7 MR . SNEDDON : Your Honor, with your

8 permission, I’d like to show the exhibits — the

9 witness some exhibits and put them up on the board .

10 And I’m specifically — we ‘re going to start with

11 People’s No . 50 in evidence.

12

13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

14 BY MR . SNEDDON :

15 Q. Star, let me begin by asking you some

16 questions about Mr. Jackson’s bedroom. How many

17 floors are there to his bedroom?

18 A. One.

19 Q. And how many floors are there in the suite

20 to his bedroom ?

21 A. In the suite?

22 Q. Well, let me ask — let me show you a

23 photograph.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. Let me do it this way. I don ‘t want to get

26 sidetracked here.

27 You told the ladies and gentlemen of the

28 jury during your testimony that on the occasion that

1452

1 you saw Mr. Jackson lying on the bed with your

2 brother, that you had to walk up some stairs .

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And so is the bedroom where you saw those

7 activities occur on the same level as the area

8 below ?

9 A. No .

10 Q. I’m going to have to do it one at a time

11 while I’m down here.

12 Now, the exhibit that you have that ‘s in

13 front of you that ‘s People ‘s 50, do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, what door is that? Where does that

16 lead to?

17 A. That’s leading to a hallway that leads to

18 the second double door into his bedroom.

19 Q. And in relation to this particular door, is

20 this the door you go through that sets off the

21 sensors?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where about , when you go through those

24 doors , do you actually hear it?

25 A. A little after you pass the duck . The duck.

26 Q. And can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of

27 the jury , what is the sound that you hear when it

28 goes off ?

1453

1 A. It ‘s hard to explain . But it goes like

2 “doom -doom-doom.” Something like that .

3 Q. How long do you think it is?

4 A. Couple seconds .

5 Q. Is that the only sound that goes off?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The exhibit number on that photograph, I

8 believe, is 53 ; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you see in that photograph what you were

11 referring to in answering Mr. Mesereau ‘s questions

12 as the sensors ?

13 A. What do you mean?

14 Q. Well, he asked you about some sensors. Do

15 you remember that ?

16 A. Oh , yes.

17 Q. All right. And what were you referring to?

18 Do you see anything in that photograph that you were

19 referring to in answering his questions?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. What is it?

22 A. It ‘s the silver one to the right of the

23 picture. It’s under the picture of a little girl.

24 Q. Now, just wait a second .

25 All right. Now, show the ladies and

26 gentlemen of the jury what you were referring to

27 just a moment ago .

28 A. Okay.

1454

1 Q. So there ‘s one on each side?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, is there a separate key pad entry that

4 you have to touch to get in?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, when you were answering Mr. Mesereau ‘s

7 questions, you indicated that there was a double

8 door you had to go through to get into Mr . Jackson ‘s

9 bedroom.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you see the double doors that you were

14 referring to in your testimony to Mr. Mesereau?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you point them out to the jury in this

17 photograph?

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. So you’re indicating in the middle of the

20 photograph, one on the right and one on the left?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I’ve now handed you People ‘s 54. Do you

23 recognize that photograph?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, what is that ?

26 A. That’s the view inside Michael’s bedroom.

27 Q. Now, do you see in that photograph the

28 double doors you were referring to in answering Mr .

1455

1 Mesereau ‘s questions ?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Would you point it out to the jury ?

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. You’re indicating to the right and to the

6 left of the photograph?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, directly ahead in that photograph , do

9 you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is that? What part of the room is

12 that?

13 A. That’s the downstairs.

14 Q. The downstairs to what?

15 A. Michael’s bedroom . That’s the big area.

16 Q. That’s the what?

17 A. That’s the big area.

18 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony the other

19 day, when we were going through — and I’m not going

20 to walk through all of them, but we were going

21 through the photographs , you identified an area as a

22 bathroom that had a tub in it . Do you recall that ?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What floor is that on?

25 A. The first floor.

26 Q. And the area with the piano?

27 A. It ‘s on the first floor also.

28 Q. Now, in that photograph , if one were to

1456

1 enter those doors and want to go to Mr . Jackson ‘s

2 bedroom – okay ? – which way would they turn after

3 they come through those doors ?

4 A. You would turn to the right.

5 Q. And then after you turn to the right, where

6 would you have to go ?

7 A. You would have to open up a door and turn to

8 your left and walk up the stairs .

9 Q. And do you know approximately how much

10 distance there is between the time you enter the

11 door and turn right, before you get to the door ?

12 A. Like 17 stairs .

13 Q. No , no, that’s not what I asked you .

14 What I asked you was , when you turn to the

15 right through this door , before you get to the door

16 that leads to the stairway , approximately how far is

17 that?

18 A. Eight feet.

19 MR . AUCHINCLOSS: Your Honor, could you

20 black the screen just for a moment?

21 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel

22 table .)

23 MR . SNEDDON : Now — do you want to put that

24 back up?

25 MR . AUCHINCLOSS: Thank you, Your Honor.

26 That’s fine .

27 MR . SNEDDON : Put the other one back up.

28 I have one last question on the original one . There

1457

1 we go .

2 Q. All right. Star, you indicated to Mr.

3 Mesereau that there was a door that had several

4 locks on it from the inside. Do you recall that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And can you tell us which door or doors it

7 is that has those locks ?

8 So you’re referring — and the exhibit

9 number on that , Star ?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Hate to interrupt you, but — what’s the

12 exhibit number on that? 13 A. 54 .
14 Q. 54 . So you were indicating the two doors to

15 the entrance to the bedroom?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, are those doors visible in this

18 photograph or on the other side of the doors ?

19 A. The other side of the doors.

20 Q. And what kind of locks are they?

21 A. Um , there’s two at the top — well, one on

22 each door at the top . And you have to push it till

23 it locks . And on the bottom, it ‘s like the same

24 thing , but you ‘re pushing down.

25 Q. So you counted each one of those things as a

26 lock?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Okay. And what else was locked, do you

1458

1 consider a lock?

2 A. The key pad . It will lock the — I don’t

3 know what it’s called, but it ‘s that (indicating).

4 Not the doorknob. It was like — well , it will just

5 unlock it.

6 Q. And where was the key pad that unlocked it?

7 Back over there that you showed us on that other

8 photograph?

9 A. Yes. And there’s a lock that you just

10 twist , and there’s one more lock . Wait. Wait, I

11 think there ‘s just six, then.

12 Q. Okay. In any case, those were what you

13 considered the locks that you were talking about

14 with the jury?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Now, let ‘s go to the –

17 A. Six.

18 Q. All right. We have a photograph marked as

19 People’s 72 . It’s in evidence. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that the one you have in front of you

22 right now?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, with regard to that particular

25 photograph, there is a door depicted in that

26 particular photograph. Do you see that?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Now, with regard to your testimony and the

1459

1 answering of the questions of Mr . Mesereau yesterday

2 and today, do you see the door that you were

3 referring to that leads to Mr . Jackson ‘s bedroom?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Can you point that out to the

6 jury?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. And that ‘s the door that is

9 indicated about two-thirds of the way over on the

10 left-hand side of the photograph ?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Right by the stairwell?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, is that door a different — is that

15 door different from the one you showed us before

16 that you come into the entryway?

17 A. No .

18 Q. Pardon?

19 A. Well, yes, it’s different. It’s a single

20 door.

21 Q. And when you referred to a door the first

22 time that you went up the stairs that was — that

23 you thought was locked until you pushed it the

24 second time , is that the door you’re referring to?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Now, Star, you can put that down if you’d

27 like.

28 And we can turn the lights on , if you’d

1460

1 like, Your Honor.

2 Just a couple of other things that have to

3 do with the residence.

4 You indicated in your testimony that you

5 needed a combination for pads to get into certain

6 locations in Mr. Jackson’s — at Neverland Ranch.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, you ‘ve described some of the locations

9 that you needed the pad to get into certain

10 locations. Did you need a combination to get into

11 the arcade?

12 A. No .

13 Q. Did you need a combination to get into Mr .

14 Jackson’s office?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did the combination that you had work?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you need a combination to get into the

19 theater?

20 A. I think it was locked with a key .

21 Q. With a key?

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. Did you know where they kept the key?

24 A. No , I think security had the key . I don’t

25 know who exactly had the key.

26 Q. With regard to the kitchen , did you need a

27 pad to get into the kitchen?

28 A. No , it was open.

1461

1 Q. And when you told us about entering the

2 front door, but there is a rear entrance to Mr.

3 Jackson’s residence, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you need to have a combination to get in

6 there ?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the same combination you’ve described in

9 answering both my questions and Mr. Mesereau ‘s, that

10 combination worked?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, speaking of the kitchen, Mr . Mesereau

13 asked you about being in the kitchen, and you

14 indicated that you had been out there looking around

15 for some utensils to cook.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Will you tell the ladies and

20 gentlemen of the jury why you were in the kitchen

21 cooking?

22 A. Because sometimes the cooks didn ‘t cook it

23 right , so I cooked some stuff .

24 Q. Do you like to cook?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Is that one of your hobbies?

27 A. One of my hobbies , yes.

28 Q. One other thing, just — when you answered

1462

1 Mr . Mesereau’s question and you said that Gavin went

2 to Neverland Valley Ranch when he was seriously ill;

3 do you recall that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you mean by that?

6 A. He was seriously ill and he went to

7 Neverland Ranch.

8 Q. What did you mean by “seriously ill “?

9 A. He had cancer.

10 Q. Is that what you meant?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did you find out that there was a

13 telescope up on the hill?

14 A. We — me , my brother and — I don’t remember

15 who, but me , my brother and someone else were riding

16 up there with our ATV’s and we saw a trail, and so

17 we went up there, and we found like a glass table

18 and — it was like a covered area. And there was a

19 telescope that was mounted right there .

20 Q. All right. I’m going to ask you some

21 questions now about some things that Mr. Mesereau

22 asked you about. Okay?

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. Now, do you remember Mr . Mesereau asking you

25 about the incident that you described where Mr.

26 Jackson got on the bed and scooted over towards your

27 brother, and I think Mr . Mesereau said put his arm

28 around him and was next to him?

1463

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall Mr. Mesereau asking you that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, did you tell the Santa Barbara

5 Sheriff’s Department about that incident?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you also tell the sheriff’s

8 department that there were two other incidents that

9 you saw Mr. Jackson on the bed with your brother?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR . MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

12 THE COURT : Overruled .

13 THE WITNESS : Yes .

14 THE COURT : The answer was in.

15 Q. BY MR . SNEDDON : So you told them there were

16 actually three incidents that occurred ?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you told them that in the initial

19 interview; isn ‘t that correct ?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you also testified to that at the grand

22 jury, did you not ?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You testified to all three incidents?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. So there was two you saw on the stairs , and

27 one you saw when you were in the bedroom?

28 A. Yes.

1464

1 Q. Now, with regard to the time that you saw

2 Mr . Jackson on the bed with your brother, okay?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. And that you’ve described to the jury with

5 Mr . Jackson ‘s hand inside your brother ‘s private

6 parts , okay ?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. Now, did you have any difficulty seeing what

9 was going on?

10 A. No .

11 Q. Could you see their eyes?

12 A. A little bit, yes .

13 Q. Could you tell whether or not in the first

14 incident , whether or not your brother’s eyes were

15 opened or closed?

16 A. His head was facing down, and I saw his

17 eyes. They were closed .

18 Q. And with regard to Mr. Jackson in the first

19 incident , did you see whether his eyes were open or

20 closed?

21 A. His eyes were closed .

22 Q. And in the second — well, in the first

23 incident , I think you indicated that you — well,

24 let me just do it the other way.

25 When you said that you had seen alcohol in

26 Mr . Jackson ‘s room before –

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. – on the first incident when you went up

1465

1 there and you saw Mr . Jackson on the bed next to

2 your brother and your brother curled up, did you see

3 alcohol on that occasion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And where was it in the room?

6 A. It was the nightstand next to the bed.

7 Q. On which side?

8 A. My brother’s side .

9 Q. So you had no difficulty seeing the alcohol

10 on the nightstand ?

11 A. No .

12 Q. Now, you were asked by Mr. Mesereau to look

13 at a section of the transcript during your grand

14 jury testimony about whether you saw Mr. Jackson

15 fiddling with your brother ‘s shirts or otherwise

16 touching him. Do you recall him asking you that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then you were asked a question by Mr.

19 Mesereau , where you said — there was a question,

20 “He would be touching him a lot?”

21 “Yeah .”

22 And then you said , “Not his genitals. Not

23 his penis. I never saw that.” Okay?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were you referring to in connection

26 with that statement in relationship to the

27 information you had just talked about?

28 A. I was talking about at the table .

1466

1 Q. At the what ?

2 A. At the table.

3 Q. Is that where that incident occurred?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you didn ‘t see him touch your brother’s

6 privates or genitals at the table?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Star, is there any doubt in your mind as to

9 what you saw with regard to your brother and the

10 defendant while they were laying on the bed on the

11 two occasions you testified to the ladies and

12 gentlemen of the jury?

13 A. No .

14 Q. Was it the truth?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR . SNEDDON : I have no further questions ,

17 Your Honor.

18 THE COURT : Recross?

19 MR . MESEREAU: Very briefly, Your Honor.

20 If I may take a second.

21 THE COURT : Yes .

22

23 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

24 BY MR . MESEREAU:

25 Q. Have you told the truth throughout your

26 testimony in this courtroom?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Have you told any lie at all?

1467

1 A. No .

2 Q. Did you tell the truth to the grand jury?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Ever tell any lie to the grand jury ?

5 A. No .

6 Q. Did you tell the truth to the police every

7 time you interviewed with them?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Ever tell them any lies ?

10 A. No . No.

11 Q. Have you ever lied before?

12 A. Yes.

13 THE COURT: Counsel? One of the jurors

14 needs to use the rest room , so we’ll — I think what

15 we should do is break early.

16 MR . MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

17 THE COURT : We’re on a break.

18 (Recess taken.)

19 THE COURT: Go ahead , Counsel .

20 MR . MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.

21 Q. Star, you said there were 17 stairs , right?

22 A. Give or take a few, yes .

23 Q. Did you count them?

24 A. Over time, yeah.

25 Q. What do you mean, “over time”?

26 A. We stood there for a long time.

27 Q. Well, I’m asking you , did you count the

28 stairs?

1468

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. How did you come up with the number “17”?

3 A. I don ‘t know.

4 Q. Pardon me?

5 A. Most stairs like that have 17 stairs.

6 Q. Most stairs like that have 17 stairs?

7 A. Well, most stairways like that have 17

8 stairs.

9 Q. How do you know that ?

10 A. Because my house has 17 stairs.

11 Q. Did someone from the prosecution team tell

12 you there was 17 stairs ?

13 A. No , they — no , I just knew there were 17

14 stairs.

15 Q. Did someone from the sheriff’s department

16 tell you there were 17 stairs ?

17 A. No .

18 Q. Did you actually count those stairs ?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When?

21 A. I don ‘t know the exact date. But I remember

22 counting them.

23 Q. When you were at Neverland ?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what was the purpose for counting them?

26 A. I don ‘t know. I do that at every house I go

27 to with stairs . I just count the stairs.

28 Q. So you’re a compulsive stair-counter?

1469

1 A. No . I just count the stairs.

2 Q. Is that one of your hobbies also ?

3 A. No , my other hobby’s building airplanes,

4 model airplanes.

5 Q. In none of the police reports do you mention

6 “17 stairs,” correct ?

7 A. No .

8 Q. Before the grand jury, you never mentioned

9 “17 stairs,” correct ?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you’re saying years ago, you counted 17

12 stairs, right?

13 A. Yes, I just remember the number.

14 Q. You did it just for fun , right?

15 A. Yeah. Just happened to count them.

16 Q. Okay. Now, you gave an eight -feet figure .

17 Remember that?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. How did you figure out eight feet –

20 A. I don ‘t know. It looked like eight feet, so

21 I just said –

22 Q. Did you measure that also?

23 A. No .

24 Q. Okay. You just kind of guessed?

25 A. Well, I don ‘t know. Yeah.

26 Q. Did the prosecutor ever tell you eight feet?

27 A. No .

28 Q. Did any member of the sheriff ‘s department

1470

1 ever tell you to say eight feet?

2 A. No .

3 Q. How many stairs are there in the main house

4 leading to the kids’ room?

5 A. Let’s see. Six — I don’t know exactly

6 how –

7 Q. You didn ‘t count them?

8 A. No . They’re not in a straight line , so I

9 didn’t count them .

10 (Laughter.)

11 Q. So when you count stairs, you only do it

12 when they’re in a straight line?

13 A. When they’re straight.

14 Q. Okay. You didn’t count those stairs, did

15 you?

16 A. I did count those stairs.

17 Q. You mentioned you some rode ATV’s, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you and your brother used to ride –

20 rode ATV ‘s on the ranch , right?

21 A. Until someone got lost in the mountains, 22 so ….
23 Q. You actually rode those ATV’s into Los

24 Olivos one day , didn ‘t you ?

25 A. We never left the ranch .

26 Q. Huh?

27 A. We never left the ranch .

28 Q. Well, you were caught in Los Olivos with

1471

1 them, weren ‘t you ?

2 A. By who?

3 Q. By someone who works on the ranch.

4 A. No , it’s not true .

5 Q. Never went off the property on the ATV ‘s?

6 A. No .

7 Q. Never were caught by anybody?

8 A. No .

9 Q. Now, you were not supposed to be in the

10 kitchen cooking, correct?

11 A. The cooks encouraged me to cook.

12 Q. You were confronted by Kiki one time about

13 you were not supposed to be in the kitchen, right?

14 A. No .

15 Q. You don’t recall that?

16 A. No .

17 Q. You don’t recall threatening Kiki with a

18 knife when she confronted you in the kitchen ?

19 A. No .

20 Q. Never happened ?

21 A. No .

22 Q. Now, Prosecutor Sneddon asked you what you

23 meant when you told the grand jury you hadn’t seen

24 Michael Jackson touch Gavin’s genitals or penis .

25 Do you remember that ?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And your response to Mr . Sneddon was, “Well,

28 I was just talking about the dinner table ,” right?

1472

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How come you never mentioned “dinner table”

3 to the grand jury when you made that statement?

4 A. I don ‘t know if they asked me .

5 Q. Well, let me just go through what you said.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. Okay?

8 “Q. What kind of things?

9 “Fix his shirt .

10 “Q. What else ?

11 “A. He looked like from — if you’re

12 standing in front of him, it looked like he ‘s

13 trying to fix his shirt. But it’s hard to

14 explain . But he would like fix it , like he would

15 touch — well , it was weird.

16 “Q. He would be touching him a lot?

17 “A. Yeah.

18 “Q. Not his genitals, not his penis?

19 “A. I never saw that. But I saw it in the

20 paper.”

21 A. I don ‘t know what I meant by “paper ,” but I

22 was trying to say that I didn ‘t see it that time.

23 Q. But you never mentioned any kitchen table ,

24 right ?

25 A. But it wasn’t the kitchen table.

26 Q. But you never mentioned any table at all,

27 correct?

28 A. I know.

1473

1 Q. When did you come up with that explanation?

2 MR . SNEDDON : Object ; argumentative .

3 THE COURT : Sustained .

4 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: Did you discuss with

5 Prosecutor Sneddon that you were going to be asked

6 that question?

7 A. No .

8 Q. Have you ever discussed the statement you

9 made to the grand jury about not seeing genitals or

10 penis ; ever discuss that statement with Mr. Sneddon?

11 A. No .

12 Q. Ever discuss it with any prosecutor ?

13 A. No .

14 Q. Ever discuss it with anyone in the sheriff’s

15 department?

16 A. No .

17 Q. You don’t mention that kitchen table in this

18 context anywhere in the police reports , do you?

19 A. I don ‘t know.

20 MR . SNEDDON : Your Honor, I’m going to

21 object. Assumes facts not in evidence as to — I

22 won’t say anything.

23 THE COURT : I don’t think he knows what ‘s in

24 the police reports, so –

25 MR . MESEREAU: Okay. I’ll rephrase it , Your

26 Honor .

27 Q. In none of your police interviews do you

28 ever make that statement and say , “I’m limiting this

1474

1 to what I saw at the kitchen table,” right?

2 MR . SNEDDON : That’s what I’m objecting to.

3 It assumes facts not in evidence as to the — I know

4 you don’t want me to speak , but –

5 THE COURT : I don’t want you to speak.

6 MR . SNEDDON : All right . Then –

7 THE COURT : I’ll allow the question. I’ll

8 have it read back .

9 (Record read .)

10 THE WITNESS: No.

11 Q. BY MR . MESEREAU: And in none of your police

12 interviews do you limit that statement about not

13 seeing genitals or penis touched to any table,

14 right ?

15 A. No .

16 Q. Today is the first time you ever limited

17 that statement to what you saw at a table , correct ?

18 A. I don ‘t — yes .

19 Q. Now, you ‘ve indicated the first time you

20 ever discussed any alleged inappropriate touching by

21 Michael Jackson was with Psychologist Stanley Katz ,

22 right ?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you have admitted that you gave Stanley

25 Katz a different description than you’ve given in

26 this courtroom , right?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. In fact, you never mentioned the third event

1475

1 that you ‘ve described today to Stanley Katz?

2 A. Because I might have forgot about it.

3 MR . MESEREAU: No further questions .

4 THE COURT : Mr. Sneddon? 5
6 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

7 BY MR . SNEDDON :

8 Q. Star, with regard to the table that you’re

9 talking about, was it the kitchen table?

10 A. It was the dinner table .

11 Q. And there’s — there ‘s a difference in that

12 particular residence between the kitchen table and

13 the dinner table, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you were asked this question, you

16 were asked this question at the grand jury, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you were asked by Mr. Zonen?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And he was asking you about Mr. Jackson

21 fiddling with your brother ‘s shirt?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that the only occasion that you saw him

24 fiddling with his shirt ?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And that was in response to Mr. Zonen’s

27 question ?

28 A. Yes.

1476

1 MR . SNEDDON : Nothing further , Your Honor .

2 MR . MESEREAU: Nothing further, Your Honor.

3 THE COURT : All right . Thank you . You may

4 step down.

5 Call your next witness.

6 MR . SNEDDON : Gavin Arvizo , Your Honor .

7 THE COURT: When you get to the witness

8 stand here, please remain standing.

9 GAVIN ARVIZO: Yes, sir .

10 THE COURT : Face the clerk here. Raise your

11 right hand.

12

13 GAVIN-ANTON ARVIZO

14 Having been sworn, testified as follows : 15
16 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and

17 spell your name for the record.

18 THE WITNESS : Gavin — Gavin-Anton Arvizo .

19 THE CLERK : Will you spell your name , please?

20 THE WITNESS : G-a-v-i-n, dash , A-n-t-o-n,

21 A-r-v-i-z-o.

22 THE CLERK : Thank you . 23
24 DIRECT EXAMINATION

25 BY MR . SNEDDON :

26 Q. Okay. I’m going to have to ask you to lean

27 right into that mike and talk loud so we can all

28 hear what you have to say. All right?

1477

1 A. All right.

2 Q. Do you recognize the defendant in this case?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who is that ?

5 A. Michael Jackson.

6 Q. Did you know Mr. Jackson for a while?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. Gavin , tell the ladies and

9 gentlemen of the jury, how old are you ?

10 A. Right now, I’m 15 years old.

11 Q. And what ‘s your date of birth ?

12 A. December 2nd, 1989.

13 Q. And do you have any brothers and sisters?

14 A. Yes. One brother and one sister . And right

15 now I have one half brother. One big brother.

16 Q. And your mother’s name?

17 A. Janet — well, I guess her name right now is

18 Janet Jackson.

19 Q. And your stepfather’s name ?

20 A. Jay Jackson .

21 Q. And your father’s name?

22 A. David Gavino Arvizo.

23 Q. Do you have a sister ?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. His name — her name ?

26 A. Davellin Love Arvizo .

27 Q. And you have a brother?

28 A. Yes.

1478

1 Q. Another brother?

2 A. Star David Arvizo .

3 Q. And you said you have a half brother. I’m

4 assuming you mean –

5 A. Jett.

6 Q. Jett?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, when you were growing up and you

9 started school , do you remember what school you

10 started at?

11 A. Well, like, I think the first school I went

12 to is a school called Durphy. And then I went to a

13 school called Norwood.

14 Q. You got to lean into the mike .

15 A. I think the first school I went to was

16 Durphy, and it was like when I was like four years

17 old. And the teacher said I wasn’t, like , old

18 enough to go to school, and I had to go to

19 kindergarten to another school when I was five,

20 something like that.

21 Q. When you were — like, say , from

22 kindergarten through the third or fourth grade,

23 where were you living?

24 A. I was living at my — first my grandmother’s

25 house , and then we moved to East L.A.

26 Q. And do you remember the street in East L.A.

27 that you moved to ?

28 A. Soto.

1479

1 Q. And when you lived on Soto Street, who did

2 you live with at that place, in the beginning?

3 A. I lived with my biological father David and

4 my mom Janet.

5 Q. And what about your brother and sister ?

6 A. My brother Star, and my sister Davellin.

7 Q. And can you describe to the ladies and

8 gentlemen of the jury what the inside of the place

9 that you lived at on Soto Street was like ?

10 A. It was like one room , and then we had like a

11 kitchen, there was like a hallway kind of , and we

12 had to put all our appliances and stuff in there.

13 And we had one rest room, and one closet, so it was

14 like a bachelor apartment.

15 Q. And where did you sleep in that room?

16 A. We slept like — when you would open the

17 door, there was — we would put our bunk beds right

18 there . But then later we didn’t have any more bunk

19 beds, and then we all slept on one bed together .

20 Q. Now, during the time that you were living on

21 Soto Street in your — well, let me ask it this way:

22 At some point did your father leave ?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. Do you remember that ?

25 A. I was at my grandmother ‘s house when it

26 happened . But my mom told me that something

27 happened where he wanted him to take — she wanted

28 to take my — my sister and my brother to go to ,

1480

1 like, a park or something, and he got angry and he

2 left.

3 Q. Now, did you ever see your father after

4 that?

5 A. No .

6 Q. During the time that your mother and father

7 lived together and you lived with your mother and

8 your father – okay? –

9 A. Uh -huh.

10 Q. – how would you describe the nature of

11 their relationship?

12 A. Well, like, they would fight every day ,

13 about where we lived and, like, bills and whatever .

14 Q. You got to lean in there.

15 A. They would fight about bills, and his

16 family, and our family. Well , the — like my mom’s

17 mother and father , and their cousins and my — they

18 would fight about his family; you know what I mean ?

19 Q. Did you ever see any physical abuse ?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. By whom?

22 A. My dad would hit my mom sometimes. Like I

23 saw him one time grab a fire hydrant and my mom

24 tripped over a cart — or those — it was like a

25 black cart that was like about that tall.

26 Q. What did you use the cart for ?

27 A. Used it for grocery shopping. It broke

28 really easy , though. And my mom tripped over it

1481

1 because my dad was about to hit her with a fire

2 hydrant.

3 Q. Do you mean — a fire hydrant ; do you mean

4 like –

5 A. It was a fire — oh, it was a fire hydrant

6 about that big , about that tall. They had them in

7 our apartment.

8 Q. Okay. Were you ever struck by your father?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. How many times were you struck?

11 A. Well, I was not hit as much as my mom was ,

12 but I got hit sometimes .

13 Q. How about your brothers and sisters ?

14 A. I saw him hit my brother a lot, like in his

15 head. He — and my sister sometimes, too , he

16 slapped her .

17 Q. During the summer one time , did you ever

18 attend a comedy camp ?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury

21 about that.

22 A. When I was — when I was eight years old, my

23 mom found this flyer , and she always thought that I

24 was, like, kind of funny. So she wanted me to go to

25 this comedy camp that was at a comedy club, and it

26 was called Laugh Factory.

27 And so I went there, and we would — Jamie

28 would have comedians come, and then we would — they

1482

1 would teach us and we would take notes and stuff.

2 And then , like , toward the end — well , when we have

3 our graduation from comedy camp, we each had like

4 a — like our own coach for each people — for each

5 person, and my coach was George Lopez.

6 Q. Now, you used the name “Jamie .” Do you know

7 Jamie ‘s last name ?

8 A. Masada.

9 Q. And did he become a family friend?

10 A. Yeah. He’s really close. Like when I had

11 cancer, he would always visit me . And he would feed

12 me food, because I didn ‘t really want to eat ,

13 because the chemotherapy makes you always nauseous

14 and always want to throw up. And it got to the

15 point where I got to , like , 68 pounds. And Jamie

16 would feed me pineapple and melon and stuff.

17 Q. Now, when you were at the comedy camp that

18 summer – okay? – did you have somebody that you

19 admired as a comedian?

20 A. Uh -huh.

21 Q. Who was that?

22 A. Jay Leno .

23 Q. And did you ever talk to anybody about Jay

24 Leno?

25 A. Yeah.

26 Q. Who? Just tell me who first.

27 A. Jamie .

28 Q. Okay. Go ahead.

1483

1 A. At the comedy camp, I would always ask Jamie

2 if Jay Leno was ever going to come, if Jay Leno ‘s

3 going to come and teach us , come to the camp ,

4 because I really liked him . Jay Leno was my

5 favorite comedian . But he never came to the camp.

6 Q. At some point in time, you learned — you

7 became ill, correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you became ill , what was the first

10 thing that you realized that something wasn’t right

11 with your body ?

12 A. Well, my stomach was hurting a lot, like it

13 felt like there was a knife in your stomach. And I

14 couldn’t sleep at night . I would put my pillow in

15 my stomach, because it really hurt. And then I

16 looked at myself in the mirror and lifted up my

17 shirt , and I saw there was a big bump, like my lower

18 left torso.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. And my grandmother came , and she saw it, and

21 she told my parents. And a couple days later we

22 went to the hospital , and they told me — the

23 doctors were saying, like, it ‘s an inflamed spleen

24 or it ‘s this and that. They weren’t really saying

25 it was cancer yet .

26 Q. When you went to the hospital for the first

27 time and they examined you , did they put you in the

28 hospital on that date?

1484

1 A. Yeah. And then I had a surgery that same

2 week on Thursday. So we went there on Monday, I

3 think , and then surgery was on Thursday.

4 Q. When did you personally learn that you had

5 cancer?

6 A. Um , it was before my surgery. They were

7 very open. They would — didn’t try to hide it from

8 me that I had cancer . The surgeons came in and they

9 talked about it, and they said what the cancer was .

10 And they said how they were going to take it out,

11 and they were going to need to take out this –

12 they’re going to need to remove the cancer. And

13 then Thursday they did the surgery. And they had –

14 they didn’t just have to take out the cancer , they

15 had to take out my spleen and my left kidney ,

16 because the cancer was eating away at the — my

17 spleen and my kidney .

18 Q. Now, after you came out of surgery, and

19 you — did you remain in the hospital for some

20 period of time ?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How long ; do you remember?

23 A. A few weeks , I guess .

24 Q. During that first period of time after the

25 surgery and you were there for two weeks, did you

26 have any visitors ?

27 A. Yeah.

28 Q. Who was that?

1485

1 A. Like my old coach , George Lopez, came, and

2 he would always — he visited me . Jamie would visit

3 me . And then Louise Palanker would visit me . My

4 grandparents would visit me a lot. George Lopez

5 would always bring me shirts and stuff , because a

6 lot of my clothes didn’t fit me anymore. And Jamie

7 would buy me these little toys that I could play

8 with.

9 Jamie would always say like — I remember

10 hearing him say to my parents actually , to “Always

11 keep him happy . Always keep him happy .”

12 Q. Now, did you become friends with George

13 Lopez ?

14 A. Oh , yeah . He was like a brother to me . He

15 was very close and caring about everything that

16 happened with my cancer .

17 Q. Are you still close to Mr. Lopez ?

18 A. No . Not really.

19 Q. What happened?

20 A. Well, I heard about something that happened

21 between my biological father and George Lopez.

22 There was a confrontation where he went to one of

23 his clubs — not one of his clubs. One of his shows

24 at a club, and –

25 Q. Between your — between who?

26 A. My biological father David and George.

27 Q. After that, did you have any contact with

28 Mr . Lopez?

1486

1 A. No .

2 Q. Was that after your cancer had gone into

3 remission?

4 A. Yes, I believe so .

5 Q. So Mr . Lopez was there for you during the

6 time you were having cancer?

7 A. Yeah, he was always there for me . He would

8 always call and talk to me , call me and say that to

9 “Always” — that “Always be happy.” He’d cheer me

10 up when I was sad and stuff.

11 Q. Now, during the time that you were in the

12 hospital with cancer , did you ever have a

13 conversation with regard to some people that you

14 would like to meet?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. Now, at the time that you asked — you made

17 the request to meet these people , what was your

18 condition at that point in time in terms of whether

19 you thought you were going to live or die ?

20 A. Well, me , when I had cancer, I never thought

21 I was going to die. I always — I never even

22 thought about that. I always thought about, oh ,

23 getting done with the chemo and going to school

24 again ; you know what I mean?

25 Q. Did the doctors tell you something

26 different?

27 A. Yeah, there was one time that I was — well,

28 they thought I was sleeping in my bed, and they were

1487

1 talking to my mother and my biological father. And

2 my doctor told them to prepare for my funeral. And

3 that if the cancer didn ‘t kill me, the chemotherapy

4 would . Because the chemotherapy is toxic and they

5 were giving me adult dosages.

6 Q. So who did you make the request of to meet

7 some people while you were under going cancer

8 treatment?

9 A. Jamie .

10 Q. And who did you ask to see ?

11 A. Well, there ‘s — I asked — like every time

12 I would watch Jay Leno’s shows was — Jay Leno was a

13 really nice , really nice comedian, and I always

14 wanted to meet him. And he was like — I thought he

15 was like the coolest comedian .

16 And then Louise Palanker and Jamie Masada

17 knew that, and so they gave me his phone number .

18 And I would call him up , and I would ask him if he

19 could come and visit me or he could give me his

20 phone number so I could call him , and I would leave

21 messages .

22 Q. Anybody else other than Mr . Leno ?

23 A. Michael.

24 Q. Okay. Anybody else?

25 A. Chris Tucker.

26 Q. Okay. Were there any others? Were there

27 others that you asked to meet but you didn’t meet?

28 A. Oh , that I didn’t meet? No, I don’t think

1488

1 so .

2

Q. Okay. Tell me about Mr . Tucker. How was it

3 that you met Mr. Tucker ?

4 A. He came to my first benefit that Jamie

5 allowed me to have. And he was sitting there and

6 talking to me, and he was talking to me about God

7 and stuff, and that God ‘s going to bless me and all

8 this stuff like that . And then he wrote his phone

9 number down on a napkin . He told me to call him and

10 that we would hang out sometime.

11 And then so — the next day I called him

12 because I was — because it was Chris Tucker and he

13 was really cool.

14 Q. Okay. Did he come over ?

15 A. I went over to his house.

16 Q. How did you get there?

17 A. I think my dad drove me over the first time.

18 Q. So you met Mr. Tucker at his house, the

19 first time you met him in person ?

20 A. Yeah. No, I met him in person the first

21 time at the benefit. Like he was there. He was –

22 he was wearing like this white hat and white shirt .

23 Q. During the time that you had cancer , did you

24 become close friends with Mr. Tucker?

25 A. Yeah. He is –

26 Q. Tell us what Mr. Tucker did to help you.

27 A. He was really close to me. Like , he would

28 always — like , he took us to the Nickelodeon Awards

1489

1 like two years in a row . And he said, “Well , this

2 is our tradition. We’re always going to go to the

3 Nickelodeon Awards.” And he got really — like , we

4 were really close .

5 And, like, one night , on New Year’s, I was

6 feeling really sad because I had to be in the

7 hospital , and I was watching the New Year ‘s stuff.

8 And so I called up Chris, and I asked him ,

9 “Hey” — I actually — I just left a message . I

10 didn’t really talk to him in person . I said ,

11 “Chris, man , I need my brother. I don ‘t really have

12 anybody here.”

13 And then he didn’t even — he didn’t call me

14 back. But like at twelve o’clock midnight, he was

15 at my hospital — well, actually , he was in the

16 elevator coming up to my hospital room as New Year ‘s

17 rang out . And then he came up there, and we were

18 like — I was all , “Oh, Chris .” And he brought Aja,

19 his girlfriend , and little Dustin, his baby. And

20 then I didn ‘t think they were going to come because

21 New Year ‘s already rang out and stuff. Like , ten –

22 seven — five seconds after New Year’s, he was in my

23 hospital room. And I was really happy , and — I

24 don’t know. And he said, “Well, it ‘s not about

25 looking at when it rings out. It’s about being with

26 the people you love.” And that’s one of the reasons

27 I really like Chris and I got close to Chris .

28 Q. Did Mr. Tucker take you any other places?

1490

1 A. Yeah, he took me to Neverland a couple of

2 times . He took me out there.

3 Q. All right. Any other places that you recall

4 going with Mr. Tucker?

5 A. Oakland.

6 Q. Oakland?

7 A. Yeah. To see –

8 Q. What was the occasion?

9 A. Oh , because he knew I liked the Raiders

10 football team, so he — he knew this guy, he knew

11 one guy on the football team. I don’t know his

12 first name, but his last name is Pope. And he took

13 me up there in his plane, and then we went and saw

14 an Oakland Raider game. And I remember the Raiders

15 played the Jets. And then the Raiders won that

16 game. And we went into the locker room afterwards .

17 I met a bunch of players and he signed a jersey that

18 I had . So it was pretty cool .

19 Q. Did you ever go to any Laker games with him?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. Tell us about that.

22 A. Like, he had these — like , these pretty

23 rich friends, and he would take me to — over there,

24 and he would always have, like, front-row seats to

25 the Laker games, and they would take me.

26 And then , like , Chris — one time Chris

27 bought me a jersey, and we would always have

28 those — like, I remember seeing — always go right

1491

1 when we come in, and it was the front-row seats so

2 you could see the line of the court . It was pretty

3 cool.

4 Q. Did you ever go in the locker room?

5 A. No . We went — it wasn ‘t really a locker

6 room we went to. It was like — kind of like a

7 garage place, and then we saw , like , all the

8 players. They were already like dressed, leaving.

9 And then I saw Shaq. Like , his whole — it was

10 like my head came barely past his waist.

11 Q. Big guy, huh?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. Are you friends with Mr . Tucker anymore

14 currently?

15 A. Well, I don ‘t know if he still wants to be

16 my friend, but I’m — no, I haven’t called him in a

17 while . And he hasn’t — he hasn ‘t called me and we

18 haven ‘t really talked in a while .

19 Q. Why?

20 A. I don ‘t know. I guess because of all this

21 stuff .

22 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of

23 the jury that you had gone to a benefit. I think

24 that’s what you said . A benefit ?

25 A. Uh -huh.

26 Q. At The Laugh Factory ?

27 A. Yeah. Jamie donated one of his nights to –

28 for me. I think it was like Thursday or something .

1492

1 Q. And was that a different night or the same

2 night that you met Mr. Tucker for the first time?

3 A. I think that was the — the first night I

4 met him was — oh , actually, when I met Chris

5 Tucker, I met him at a graduation for the 2000 class

6 of comedy camp . Like, Jamie invited me over there

7 for that , and Chris Tucker was there. That wasn’t

8 when the benefit was . I just remembered that right

9 now. It was then .

10 Q. But did you meet him at a benefit?

11 A. I met Chris at the graduation for, like,

12 2000 comedy camp.

13 Q. All right. Do you know whether Mr. Tucker

14 ever attended any of the benefits that Mr . Masada

15 arranged ?

16 A. Yeah, he came to my first benefit.

17 Q. Now, were you at the benefit?

18 A. Yes. I performed in it .

19 Q. Well, who else was there, from your family?

20 A. I had my doctor, my — Chris and his — all

21 his friends . And Kobe was there . And he brought

22 his girlfriend or his now wife. I don ‘t know,

23 some — it was a lady. Louise Palanker was there.

24 A lot of people came , so….

25 Q. And members of your family . Who was there?

26 A. My mom was there, and my biological father.

27 Oh , I don’t know if my mom was there. My biological

28 father was there, I think.

1493

1 Q. Any of your brothers or sisters?

2 A. I’m pretty sure they were there.

3 Q. Now, did you have occasion on that

4 particular night to meet Kobe Bryant?

5 A. No . The first time I really met — I met

6 Kobe Bryant was at one of the Laker games that Chris

7 brought me. And they were all talking , like , in

8 this hallway. It was — I don’t know, it was

9 like — it was like a really long hallway . It was

10 all cement.

11 And then Chris and, like, all these other

12 guys were talking to Kobe and they were all leaning

13 against the wall and they were all talking, and I

14 was just sitting there because I was bored. They

15 were all talking about, like, adult stuff .

16 Q. Did you ever have a picture taken with Mr .

17 Bryant?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. Where was that picture taken at?

20 A. That was at my first benefit.

21 Q. At where ?

22 A. At The Laugh Factory .

23 Q. Now, at any of these benefits — there were

24 two benefits; is that correct ?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. I don ‘t want to put words in your mouth.

27 Were there more than two, or is that –

28 A. No , I’m pretty sure there was only two .

1494

1 Q. And where was the second benefit ?

2 A. At The Laugh Factory .

3 Q. And do you remember how much time elapsed

4 between the first benefit and the second benefit?

5 A. Probably a month maybe.

6 Q. At the first benefit — or at the second

7 benefit — let ‘s just go to the second benefit for a

8 second. Just tell me what members of your family

9 were at that benefit .

10 A. I don ‘t know. Maybe — I guess my dad would

11 be there .

12 Q. Why?

13 A. Because he was the one that was always with

14 me .

15 Q. At either of these benefits, did you ever

16 hear your mother ask for any money?

17 A. No .

18 Q. Did you ever hear your father ask for any

19 money at these benefits ?

20 A. I wouldn ‘t really see him asking for money,

21 but I knew he would be the one getting the money.

22 Q. How do you know that ?

23 A. Because he would be the one talking to Jamie

24 about that stuff.

25 Q. During the time that you had cancer , was it

26 necessary for the members of your family to do

27 something to — with regard to where you stayed when

28 you were not in the hospital?

1495

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. What was that?

3 A. Well, they didn’t want me to stay at the

4 apartment anymore . And they wanted to also make me

5 happy , and they knew I loved my grandma, so they had

6 me go live with my grandma .

7 But the problem was, I couldn ‘t go to my

8 grandma’s house, because they didn’t have a room

9 that I could stay in that was clean , because I had

10 to stay in a clean room .

11 So Louise Palanker gave us some money so

12 that we could fix up a room at my grandma ‘s house.

13 And they gave us money so I could get, like, a –

14 linoleum tile floors , and — because I couldn’t have

15 carpe t because it would be too dust y and bacteria

16 could be there . And I didn’t have a spleen, and I

17 had, like, no white blood cells, so I could get

18 sick, really sick , and get fevers and have to go to

19 the hospital and stuff. That ‘s why they had to put

20 down linoleum floors . And then they painted the

21 rooms all, like, this green color. And then they

22 painted white because it was a different color.

23 They got me a better bed and then they also found me

24 a T.V. in my room .

25 Q. Do you remember, how big was the T.V.?

26 A. It was probably about that big (indicating).

27 Q. Okay. I’m a bad judge of distance there.

28 About three feet?

1496

1 A. I don ‘t know.

2 MR . SNEDDON : Counsel, three feet?

3 Q. Depending whether they’re Shaq’s or not, I

4 guess , huh?

5 Okay. That ‘s good.

6 All right. I’m going to show you some

7 photographs .

8 A. Okay.

9 MR . SNEDDON : Hang on a second. Could we

10 have the lights, Your Honor?

11 Q. Okay. Gavin, do you recognize the people

12 depicted in that photograph?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of

15 the jury — and what the number is on that

16 photograph?

17 A. It was like four numbers. Exhibit number ?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. 49 .

20 Q. 49 . Okay. People’s 49 in evidence . Who

21 are those people?

22 A. All the way to the right is my little

23 brother Star. And then that lady right there is

24 Louise Palanker. And then that’s my sister to the

25 right of Louise Palanker. And then that’s me.

26 Q. And do you recall when that photograph was

27 taken ?

28 A. That was during our camp at Laugh Factory .

1497

1 Q. Do you know where the money came from to fix

2 up your room?

3 A. I think it came from Louise.

4 Q. Did you have a nickname you used to call

5 her?

6 A. Wheezy. Wheezy.

7 Q. Okay. Why don ‘t you turn that photograph

8 over. And I think the next one is 199 ; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Do you recognize that

12 photograph?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is that you in that photograph?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall where you were when that was

17 taken ?

18 A. I believe that was in my first benefit . And

19 then at The Laugh Factory.

20 Q. Okay. Why don ‘t we turn over — let’s go to

21 the next photograph, if we could . Do you recognize

22 that?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. And the number on that photograph is — look

25 on the exhibit , if you would. 26 A. 337.
27 Q. 337. Okay. Do you recognize that person ?

28 A. Yeah, that’s me.

1498

1 Q. And where was this taken, this photograph ?

2 A. This is in a room that Louise got me, the

3 room that Louise paid for so that I could have it.

4 Q. This is what it looked like after they fixed

5 it up ?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. All right. Thanks, Gavin.

8 A. All right.

9 MR . SNEDDON : All right . We can turn the

10 lights back on , Your Honor . Thank you .

11 Q. Gavin , at some point in time, did you have

12 some contact with the defendant in this case , Mr.

13 Jackson?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of

16 the jury how that happened ?

17 A. I’m not sure who exactly got Michael to call

18 me . But he — one night — it was either Jamie or

19 this lady named Carol Lamir. One day when I was in

20 the hospital, Michael called me up — well, someone

21 called me up, and I was like, “Who is this?”

22 Q. Lean into the microphone, please .

23 A. Someone called me in my hospital room, and I

24 asked who was this? And then they said they were

25 Michael Jackson.
26 Q. And did you believe them?
27 A. Well, yeah.
28 Q. And how long did the conversation last ?

1499

1 A. That was a pretty short conversation. It

2 was only about , like , five minutes long.

3 Q. Now, did you have other conversations with

4 Mr . Jackson ?

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. How many do you think you had — let me ask

7 you this . Let ‘s do it this way: At some point in

8 time, were you invited to go to Mr. Jackson’s ranch

9 at Neverland Valley Ranch?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Between the time you received the first

12 telephone call from the person identifying

13 themselves as Michael Jackson until you went to the

14 ranch , how many calls did you think you had between

15 you and Mr. Jackson?

16 A. That was — there was only one call , because

17 the first time that he called me , he invited me up

18 to the ranch, said he wanted me to come down .

19 Q. Were you undergoing chemotherapy at this

20 time?

21 A. Yes, I was in the middle of a round of

22 chemotherapy.

23 Q. During this conversation with Mr . Jackson ,

24 was a date set for you folks to go there, or how was

25 it that the date was set for you to go ?

26 A. He just said that he wanted me to come down.

27 And then I’m not sure how it got set up, but he was

28 telling me like — about, like, my cancer , and

1500

1 talked to me about — that he wanted me to go to his

2 ranch and stuff like that.

3 I don ‘t know how it got set up to go up

4 there . I think they talked to my parents or

5 something.

6 Q. During the time that you had cancer , did you

7 have other telephone calls with Mr. Jackson?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you give us an estimate of how many

10 calls that you had from him?

11 A. I don ‘t know. Like 20 maybe. 20 calls.

12 Q. Were some of them quite lengthy?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Were they all in the hospital ?

15 A. No .

16 Q. Where were you when you had other calls with

17 Mr . Jackson ?

18 A. My grandma’s house.

19 Q. Now, you said that you were invited by Mr .

20 Jackson to go up to his ranch ?

21 A. Uh -huh.

22 Q. And had you ever heard of Mr. Jackson’s

23 ranch prior to that?

24 A. No . After when he, like, called me and said

25 “ranch,” I thought it was like a ranch with horses .

26 Q. So how did you get up to the ranch?

27 A. There was a limousine that came to my

28 grandma’s house and then we went up in a limousine .

1501

1 Q. And who went up there?

2 A. It was me, my mom , my biological father, my

3 sister, my brother and me.

4 Q. And do you remember about — like, was it

5 daylight or was it dark when you got there?

6 A. It was daylight.

7 Q. And do you remember what happened when you

8 first got there?

9 A. Um , yeah , I think — I guess they told

10 Michael we were up there already . And he had a bib

11 on , because he was eating. And then he ran out and

12 he greeted us and he had, like, a red shirt on, a

13 black tie.

14 Q. All right. Did you have any conversation

15 with Mr. Jackson at that time , during the greetings?

16 A. Well, he just said hi to us, because he had

17 to go do something.

18 Q. So where did you go after Mr. Jackson went

19 to do something?

20 A. I think we ate .

21 Q. All right.

22 A. I guess.

23 Q. What did you do after that ?

24 A. We went and saw the unit that he put us in.

25 And then they were afraid — like, my dad was kind

26 of afraid of putting me on rides , because he thought

27 maybe , because of my surgery, I might, like, rupture

28 something or whatever. And then — but I eventually

1502

1 talked him into letting me go on rides , and we

2 started going on rides and stuff .

3 Q. At the amusement park?

4 A. Yeah, at the ranch.

5 Q. Now, let ‘s go back just a moment . Okay?

6 You said that you were placed in some room somewhere

7 to stay. Where — where were those located in

8 relationship to the main residence?

9 A. They were like 50 , 100 yards away from the

10 main house, and that ‘s where they put, like, all our

11 bags and stuff .

12 Q. All the what?

13 A. All our bags. All in the place where we

14 were staying. They put all our bags in those rooms.

15 Q. The room that you stayed in, who stayed in

16 that room with you?

17 A. Well, the first night I didn’t really stay

18 in that room. But the person that was supposed to

19 stay in that room was me and my brother.

20 Q. And where was your mother and your sister ?

21 A. My mother, my sister stood in the guest –

22 a queen-sized room or something. No, I think me, my

23 brother, and my sister was going to stay in one

24 room, and then my mom and my biological father were

25 going to stay in another.

26 Q. Do you remember any incident while you were

27 at Neverland Ranch on this first visit involving

28 your mother and your father?

1503

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. What happened?

3 A. They kind of got in a fight again, and my

4 mom had makeup on and my dad made fun of her and

5 said she looked like a clown, and then my dad got a

6 cup of soda and threw it in her face.

7 Q. Now, after you got to Neverland Ranch,

8 before we go to the next day or to that night, did

9 you ever ride any of the carts, the motorized carts

10 there ?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Tell us about that.

13 A. Well, I couldn ‘t really ride one yet because

14 Michael said, like, I had to go through his driving

15 test to see if I could drive the carts . And then I

16 could drive them. So –

17 Q. What did the test amount to?

18 A. Just make sure I wouldn ‘t crash it; I knew

19 how to, like, drive it and not run into things.

20 Q. And did you — did you ride in one of those

21 carts ?

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. Was somebody with you?

24 A. Well, when — like, riding — those times

25 when I was riding it ?

26 Q. I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear you.

27 A. What do you mean? That one time ?

28 Q. Yeah, in the beginning.

1504

1 A. I had to take his test first. So Michael

2 was in the car with me. And it was in his cart ,

3 like a black one with doors and, like, it ‘s all

4 covered up.

5 Q. And what about your brother, Star?

6 A. I didn’t really see when he got his test,

7 but my brother would ride in one , too.

8 Q. All right. When you were at Neverland

9 Ranch , was there ever an occasion where you slept in

10 Mr . Jackson ‘s room with Mr . Jackson ?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of

13 the jury how it came about that you ended up

14 sleeping with Mr. Jackson in his bedroom?

15 A. I think we were in his office . We were all

16 talking.

17 Q. Who’s “we”?

18 A. Me , my brother and Michael . We were all in

19 his office, and we were talking. And then Michael

20 said we should sleep in his room . And then I was

21 like — I was, like, “Okay , yeah ,” because we were ,

22 like, wanted to sleep in his room, too . And then he

23 told us to ask in front of our parents if we could

24 sleep in his room .

25 So I think it was like at dinner , we had

26 asked her — we asked our parents if we could sleep

27 in Michael’s room , and then so we did. And then my

28 parents said yeah , it was okay.

1505

1 Q. So when you say “we,” who else went with

2 you?

3 A. My brother.

4 Q. Now, at some point that night , then , you go

5 into Mr. Jackson’s bedroom ?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What were you doing in there; do you recall?

8 A. Well, it started out , like , we were going to

9 watch some Disney cartoons , and a bunch of these

10 videotapes of the Simpsons . And then Frank had –

11 Frank Tyson had a computer — I don ‘t remember

12 whether it was my computer or his computer — in

13 there .

14 Q. Okay. Tell us what happened.

15 A. And then he set up the computer. And then

16 Frank started doing this — doing stuff on the

17 Internet . And then they started looking up, like,

18 adult material sites .

19 Q. Where — was Mr. Jackson there?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. Was Mr. Jackson involved in that ?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in what way?

24 A. Well, we were — he was , like , pointing out

25 girls . Like, “Oh , I like her .” And then — but, I

26 mean, he wasn’t typing. Frank was typing .

27 Q. So how long do you think — how many

28 different sites do you think you went to?

1506

1 A. Maybe , like , seven sites. We didn’t go to

2 that many sites.

3 Q. And how long do you think you were doing

4 this?

5 A. I don ‘t know. Maybe , like , 15, 30 minutes.

6 Something like that.

7 Q. I couldn ‘t hear you.

8 A. I think maybe, like, 15 , 30 minutes or

9 something.

10 Q. And you described it as adult materials.

11 Can you tell us whether it was male or female?

12 A. It was female.

13 Q. Can you tell us about the age — in your

14 estimation, the age of the females that you saw ?

15 A. Maybe , like , 15 to, like, 25 years old .

16 Q. So between that range?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. Now, during the time that you were on the –

19 you were seeing the –

20 The bailiff tells me that I’m to ask you to

21 scoot closer to the microphone. And we all do what

22 the bailiff says. Okay ?

23 A. All right.

24 Q. So lean into it and talk into it just like I

25 am . Okay?

26 A. All right.

27 Q. Perfect.

28 Now, during the time that you were in the

1507

1 room going through these sites on the computer, did

2 Mr . Jackson say anything?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Tell the jury what he said .

5 A. Like one time we were, like, looking at the

6 site, and there was this girl with her shirt up .

7 And Michael says — like, it was all quiet and

8 stuff , and Michael was like, “Got milk ?” And we

9 started laughing because he said that.

10 Q. Okay. Did he say anything else?

11 A. Like, Paris and Prince were sleeping in his

12 bed. And then Michael leaned over to Prince in his

13 ear and he said, “Prince, you ‘re missing all the 14 p-u-s-s-y.”
15 Q. Did he spell it?

16 A. No .

17 Q. During the time that you became acquainted

18 with Mr. Jackson, did you have a nickname that he

19 used?

20 A. Well, it wasn’t really a nickname just for

21 me . Like, he would call all the kids that came to

22 his ranch that . It was either like “Doo-Doo Head”

23 or “Apple Head .”

24 Q. So he would call you either one of those two

25 things?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And do you recall whether he had a nickname

28 for your brother?

1508

1 A. Yeah. Like , we were trying to make up

2 nicknames one time. He has a video library. And

3 then we made up one for my brother, “Blow Hole.”

4 Q. Did your sister Davellin have a nickname?

5 A. No .

6 Q. After you visited the ranch on the occasion

7 that you described — just described to us – okay? -

8 did you go back to the ranch?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. Did you go back to the ranch?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who did you go back with?

13 A. My biological father .

14 Q. And do you recall how many times you went

15 back?

16 A. Maybe , like , seven, ten times , something

17 like that. I mean –

18 Q. Do you remember a time when you went back to

19 the ranch and there was a video taken of you and

20 Star with Mr. Jackson?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you recall on that particular

23 occasion when the video was made , like how many –

24 where on these trips was that ? In the beginning,

25 the middle or the end? Where was it?

26 A. It was really toward the beginning.

27 Q. And did your mother go with you on any of

28 those trips ?

1509

1 A. No . I think she, like, didn’t come with me

2 after the first time .

3 Q. How about your sister?

4 A. I don ‘t think she did either, because she

5 was at school. Between that and to Miami , or –

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. – when I had cancer ?

8 Q. Yes, between that and Miami.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Was there — let me put it this way : Was

11 there a time when you went back to the ranch with

12 Chris Tucker?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. So let’s just use that as a point in

15 time. All right?

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. From the time you went there for the very

18 first time with your whole family, when Mr. Jackson

19 invited you , to the time when you went back with Mr.

20 Tucker – okay? – for the first time ?

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. How many times had you visited the ranch?

23 A. Maybe , like , seven times probably.

24 Q. And during those times — during that period

25 of time, was your mother ever with you , other than

26 the first time ?

27 A. No .

28 Q. How about your sister?

1510

1 A. No , I don’t think so .

2 Q. The video that shows you and Mr. Jackson and

3 your brother Star , when you’re wheeled around in the

4 wheelchair –

5 A. Uh -huh.

6 Q. – did anybody tell you why they were doing

7 that?

8 A. No . Michael just said he wanted to make a

9 video and keep it , of me and him .

10 Q. During the time from when — the first time

11 you went to the ranch that you’ve described to us to

12 the time that you went there with Mr. Tucker -

13 okay? – during that, I think you said seven times,

14 how many of those times was Mr. Jackson actually

15 present on the ranch ?

16 A. Maybe twice .

17 Q. And on those occasions when Mr. Jackson was

18 on the ranch, did you have any contact with him ?

19 A. Those two occasions, yeah. But, I mean,

20 like, sometimes I would go up to the ranch and he

21 would say that he ‘s not there , and then he would be

22 there .

23 Q. What do you mean by that?

24 A. Like, when I would have cancer. I don ‘t

25 know what happened, but Michael, like, kind of

26 stopped talking to me and stuff, right in the middle

27 of my cancer.

28 And, like, I would go up there, and I would

1511

1 see, like, Prince and Paris playing there , and I

2 would think that Michael was there, and they would

3 tell me that Michael wasn’t there. And then , like ,

4 I would see him somewhere, and — I don’t know.

5 Q. Was there one occasion when you actually ran

6 into him by accident ?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. Tell the jury about that.

9 A. Well, I was playing with Prince and Paris

10 outside, like in the back of the house near where

11 the arcade was . And then we were walking into

12 the — into the main house . And I knew the code,

13 because they would give me the codes. And then I

14 walked in the door with Prince in my hand and Paris

15 in my other hand, and — we were holding hands. And

16 then we walked into the house and there I saw

17 Michael walking, like, toward me . But I guess he

18 didn’t see me turn the corner . And then he acted as

19 if , “Oh, crap,” you know what I mean? Like, he saw

20 me . And then — then he just played it off and ,

21 like, acted like, “Oh, hi, Doo-Doo Head.” You know,

22 at the time I — I was kind of hypnotized and, like,

23 he ‘s my –

24 MR . MESEREAU: Objection; calls for a

25 narrative and non responsive.

26 THE COURT : Sustained .

27 Q. BY MR . SNEDDON : Okay.

28 A. And then , like –

1512

1 Q. That’s all right. I’ll give you a question.

2 So in any case , you bumped into him ?

3 A. Yeah. And I was — because of –

4 Q. That’s okay . How much more contact did you

5 have with him on that time when you bumped into him?

6 How much time did the contact last?

7 A. I didn’t really see him through my cancer a

8 lot.

9 Q. I mean, you told the ladies and gentlemen of

10 the jury there was an occasion where you were there

11 when you kind of bumped into him by accident ?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. When you actually made contact with him -

14 okay? – how long did that last? Just — how long

15 was the conversation between the two of you?

16 A. Maybe , like , five minutes. When — that

17 time we bumped into each other, and then we just

18 talked about — and stuff, and he said he had to go

19 somewhere.

20 Q. Now, you mentioned that you — well , let me

21 ask you this: Did you ever have a phone number for

22 Mr . Jackson ?

23 A. Yeah. He gave me a lot of phone numbers.

24 Q. I couldn ‘t hear you.

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And how did you get those phone numbers?

27 A. Michael would give them to me , or Frank

28 would sometimes.

1513

1 Q. And when did you get those phone numbers?

2 A. Toward the beginning .

3 Q. Beginning of what ?

4 A. Like, the beginning of my cancer . First or

5 second time we went up to the ranch .

6 Q. Was there a certain point in time when those

7 phone numbers weren’t working anymore?

8 A. Yeah. Like –

9 Q. Do you remember how long it was into your

10 cancer when those phone numbers were no longer good?

11 A. Maybe , like , halfway through. Like , it

12 seemed like he changed all his numbers , or the

13 numbers that I called, he wouldn ‘t pick up. And –

14 or , like , Frank’s cell phone wasn’t — he wouldn’t

15 pick up. Frank wouldn’t pick up his phone either.

16 And –

17 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of

18 the jury that there was a time that you went back to

19 the ranch with Mr . Tucker. Do you remember that?

20 Do you remember when you went ?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell the jury when it was you went.

23 A. I don ‘t know. It was for his little

24 son’s — Dustin’s birthday .

25 Q. And who went with you?

26 A. Me , my now dad Jay, and I think my mom went,

27 and my brother and my sister, and they had his

28 birthday party there .

1514

1 Q. Were there other times that you spent on the

2 ranch with Mr. Tucker?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. And how long do you think you were there

5 with Mr. Tucker?

6 A. For — with Dustin’s party ?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. I don ‘t know. It was just a day thing . We

9 went up there for one day and then we came back .

10 Q. You came what?

11 A. I think we just went there for that and then

12 came back home .

13 Q. Were there other occasions when you were up

14 there with Mr. Tucker?

15 A. Yeah, one other time .

16 Q. And how long did you stay on that occasion?

17 A. We stood there for, like, a few — like a

18 week or — maybe a week and a half, something like

19 that.

20 Q. Was Mr. Jackson there on the day of Mr .

21 Tucker’s son’s birthday ?

22 A. No .

23 Q. And when you went back and stayed for about

24 a week or a week and a half, was Mr . Jackson there ?

25 A. With Chris?

26 Q. Yes.

27 A. He was there, like, for a few days. That

28 was when — I believe that was when the Martin

1515

1 Bashir thing happened.

2 Q. I’m sorry?

3 A. I believe that was when the Martin Bashir

4 thing happened .

5 Q. Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about Martin

6 Bashir.

7 Were you introduced to a person by the name

8 of Martin Bashir?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And where were you introduced to the person

11 by the name of Martin Bashir?

12 A. In Michael’s living room, in his main house.

13 Q. And who introduced you to Mr. Bashir?

14 A. Michael.

15 Q. Now, how did you get to the ranch?

16 A. Um , I think Chris drove me up that time.

17 And then — in his bus.

18 Q. And did any other members of your family go

19 with you ?

20 A. It was only me , my sister and my brother.

21 Q. And did you know why you were going to the

22 ranch ?

23 A. Michael wanted me to go up there , and then I

24 think I called Chris . Because I would always tell

25 him that we never went up there, like together.

26 We ‘d never been at the ranch together with Chris.

27 He would go up there one time , and I would be at

28 home. And then I would go up , and he would be home.

1516

1 So we said that we’d all go there together. So we

2 all went up there , and Chris took us up there.

3 Q. Do you — when you got there — let me go

4 back in point in time.

5 Did you have a conversation with Mr . Jackson

6 before you went up to the ranch for the Bashir

7 thing – meaning Mr. Bashir – within , let’s say, days

8 of that?

9 A. Michael told me that he wanted me to go up

10 to the ranch, but — that’s when he wanted me to go

11 with — well, that’s when it was set up with Chris ,

12 but I mean before that, I didn’t talk to him in a

13 very, very long time .

14 Q. So when you said Mr. Jackson told you he

15 wanted you to go up to the ranch , how did that

16 communication occur between you and Mr . Jackson ?

17 A. I don ‘t know. He called my house. And he

18 kind of said he was trying to find me or something .

19 Q. All right. So you go up to the ranch and

20 you meet Mr . Bashir. When you got to the ranch ,

21 what was the first thing that happened ?

22 A. Well, he put our bags away . And then I

23 had — and I went into the main house. And –

24 Michael took me to the main house.

25 Q. Who did?

26 A. Michael.

27 Q. The defendant?

28 A. Yes.

1517

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. And then introduced me to Martin Bashir.

3 Q. All right. What happened then?

4 A. He told me –

5 Q. Who’s “he”?

6 A. No , actually, I don’t think that ‘s the first

7 thing that happened. I think — he started talking

8 to me about what was going to happen and stuff.

9 Like, he was pointing — he was telling me about

10 another young man that was a burn victim. And he

11 was telling me about how he helped him or whatever .

12 Q. Who’s this? Who’s the “he “?

13 A. I don ‘t know.

14 Q. No , who was talking to you ?

15 A. Michael.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And then –

18 Q. Where were you when you had this

19 conversation?

20 A. I think we were driving in one of the carts.

21 And then he was telling me that he was filming

22 something or something like that .

23 Q. All right. Did — did you at some point go

24 inside?

25 A. Yeah.

26 Q. Did you have any other conversations with

27 Mr . Jackson ?

28 A. Yeah, that’s when he introduced me to Martin

1518

1 Bashir.

2 Q. Any other conversation with Mr. Jackson?

3 A. Yeah. Like , he introduced me to Martin

4 Bashir, and then he took me — I think it was in the

5 library where he took me. And then he was telling

6 me , “Hey , you want to be an actor, right? And I was

7 like, “Yeah . I want to be comedian though.” And

8 then he was like, “But you can act too , right?” And

9 then I was like, “Yeah.”

10 “Well , I’m going to put you in the movies .

11 And this is your audition. Okay ?”

12 And I was like , “Oh, all right.”

13 And he told me , “Okay. I want you to go in

14 and then tell them about how I helped you .” And he

15 told me to, like, make sure — tell them about,

16 like, this and that, and about “that you call me

17 dad,” or “Daddy,” or –

18 MR . MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;

19 calls for a narrative.

20 MR . SNEDDON : Your Honor, this is the

21 conversation.

22 THE COURT : Well, it is narrative , though.

23 MR . SNEDDON : All right .

24 THE COURT : Sustained .

25 Q. BY MR . SNEDDON : Was there anything else

26 said during the conversation?

27 A. He told me that he wanted me to say certain

28 things on the videotape .

1519

1 Q. What did he tell you to say on the

2 videotape?

3 A. He told me to say that he helped me , and

4 that he — he pretty much cured me of cancer .

5 Q. Did you do that?

6 A. Um –

7 Q. On the video?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Was it true ?

10 A. Not really, because he — during my cancer,

11 he wasn’t really even there. I mean, the real

12 people — I mean, it ‘s, like, the real people who

13 were there were George Lopez, because he would

14 always visit me in the hospital like every day, and

15 he would bring me shirts and stuff. Chris Tucker

16 would always visit me in the hospital. Louise

17 Palanker would come and we ‘d make jokes because ,

18 like, I wasn’t good at smelling stuff. Chemotherapy

19 would clear out everything . And then Fritz Coleman,

20 would always come with Louise and talk to me , and –

21 Q. At this point in time, when you went up to

22 the Bashir video –

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. – to the Bashir interview , okay ? –

25 A. Uh -huh.

26 Q. – did you have — did you admire Mr.

27 Jackson?

28 A. Yeah. I was like –

1520

1 Q. What was your attitude towards Mr. Jackson

2 at this point in time?

3 A. I thought, like, he was the coolest guy in

4 the world. He was like my best friend ever. Do you

5 know what I mean?

6 Q. So you had a genuine affection for Mr.

7 Jackson at this time ?

8 A. Yeah, I really liked him. He was like — I

9 don’t know, he was just — like — I –

10 Q. So during the course of the interview with

11 Mr . Bashir – okay ? – after that interview was

12 completed, all right ?

13 A. Uh -huh.

14 Q. Tell us what happened after the interview

15 was completed. Was there any other filming that

16 went on that day?

17 A. No , I don’t think so .

18 Q. Do you know whether or not your brother and

19 sister ever got their picture taken in the filming ?

20 A. Well, yeah. Well , there was one time that I

21 saw on the tape that they filmed us . I didn ‘t even

22 know the camera was on. And they were inside of the

23 kitchen and my sister and brother were there . And

24 me and my brother were showing Michael a marching

25 cadence from one of the programs that we were in

26 that we had learned.

27 Q. Okay. What was — what was the — what was

28 the marching cadence from, what program?

1521

1 A. It ‘s from a program called the United States

2 Naval Sea Cadets.

3 Q. And had you — what was the situation of you

4 learning this cadence? Just part of the training?

5 A. Yeah, it was part of the basic training that

6 we went to.

7 Q. How long was the basic training?

8 A. Two weeks ago.

9 Q. Where was it?

10 A. He went to a Navy Leaguer boot camp , and it

11 was for, like, younger kids. And then I went to a

12 sea cadet boot camp. It’s harder and it’s for older

13 kids.

14 Q. Now, did you know at the time that Mr.

15 Bashir was interviewing you with Mr . Jackson , the

16 defendant in this case, did you know that that video

17 was going to be shown around the world ?

18 A. No , not at all . I thought it was another

19 thing like — like he had filmed before, like him

20 carrying me across the bridge , that video . I

21 thought it was going to be another thing like that ,

22 like he was going to , like , put it away somewhere

23 and keep it just for himself.

24 Q. Had there been other instances on the ranch

25 where you had been filmed with Mr. Jackson, other

26 than the one with him carrying you across the

27 bridge, and the one with Mr. Bashir , that you

28 recall?

1522

1 A. No .

2 Q. Now, after the filming was over, do you

3 recall seeing Mr. Jackson at all , after that ?

4 A. After the film ? After the Martin Bashir

5 thing ?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Well, I think he left, like, the next day .

8 And me and my brother and my sister , like , stood up

9 there , and we were, like, swimming and stuff .

10 Q. Did you have any contact with Mr . Jackson

11 after the filming ?

12 A. No . Like, the same thing happened. Like ,

13 the phone number they gave me while I was up there

14 wasn’t working no more.

15 Q. It ‘s a bad question on my part.

16 While you were at the ranch for the Mr .

17 Bashir filming and after the filming was over with

18 but before you and your brother or your sister left,

19 did you have any contact with Mr . Jackson at all?

20 A. No . A day after the filming, he left the

21 ranch and went somewhere.

22 Q. So where did you spend the night after the

23 Bashir film ?

24 A. In our unit that they gave us .

25 MR . SNEDDON : Your Honor, this would be a

26 good place to stop. If you want me to go on –

27 THE COURT : All right . You know, I’ve

28 decided that if I have to go to the rest room, I’m

1523

1 not going to say that. I’m going to say, “I have an

2 important call .”

3 (Laughter.)

4 See you tomorrow at 8:30.

5 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.) 6 –o0o–
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1524

1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE

2

3

4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )

5 OF CALIFORNIA, )

6 Plaintiff, )

7 -vs- ) No. 1133603

8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )

9 Defendant. )

10

11

12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR ,

13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby

14 certify:

15 That the foregoing pages 1402 through 1524

16 contain a true and correct transcript of the

17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled

18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at

19 said proceedings on March 9, 2005, and thereafter

20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided

21 transcription under my direction .

22 DATED: Santa Maria , California , 23 April 12 , 2012 .
24

25

26

27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR , CSR #3304

28