 


 
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
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14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 TUESDAY, MARCH 8, 2005
20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 1185 THROUGH 1253)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 1185
 

 
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. 
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
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28 1186
 

 
1 I N D E X
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3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
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9 PLAINTIFF’S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
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11 ARVIZO, Star David 1189-S 1195-M (cont’d)
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28 1187
 

 
1 E X H I B I T S
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3 FOR IN PLAINTIFF’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
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5 80 Photograph 1190 1191
6 82 Photograph 1191 1191
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28 1188
 

 
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Tuesday, March 8, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: Good morning.
6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Good morning.
8 THE COURT: You may proceed.
9
10 STAR DAVID ARVIZO
11 Having been previously sworn, resumed the
12 stand and testified further as follows:
13
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
15 BY MR. SNEDDON:
16 Q. Good morning.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I just have a few questions left. Okay.
19 You’ve indicated to the ladies and gentlemen
20 of the jury that an individual by the name of Aldo
21 was present during some of the events that you’ve
22 described; do you recall that.
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. Were there times when you were at the ranch
25 and Aldo was not there.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Were there times when you were at the ranch
28 when Mr. Jackson and Aldo was not there. 1189
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. With regard to your sister - okay. -
3 Davellin --
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. -- did Mr. Jackson ever make any statements
6 about Davellin to you.
7 A. He told us not to tell her anything because
8 he’s afraid we might tell our mom.
9 Q. About what.
10 A. About what we’re doing.
11 Q. What do you mean. What were you doing at
12 the time that Mr. Jackson was making those
13 statements to you.
14 A. Drinking.
15 Q. Now, I want to just show you two last
16 photographs.
17 Mr. Mesereau.
18 Just take a look at those for a second, and
19 I’m going to ask you some questions.
20 The first number on that is People’s No. 80
21 for identification; is that correct.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And with regard to the photograph,
24 People’s 80 for identification, do you recognize
25 that.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of what it
28 purports to represent. 1190
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And with regard to People’s 81 for
3 identification --
4 A. 82.
5 Q. It’s 82.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Okay. With regard to that, is that an
8 accurate depiction of what it purports to represent.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I move that 80 and
11 82 be admitted into evidence.
12 THE COURT: They’re admitted.
13 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Now, would you
14 put 80 on the top, Star. Do you have 80 on top.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Now, Your Honor, with the Court’s
18 permission, could we activate the overhead.
19 All right. Now, with regard to No. 80,
20 would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
21 what that is.
22 A. That’s the view of the bed from the
23 stairway.
24 Q. Now, with regard to this particular
25 photograph, People’s 80, is there anything different
26 about the photograph than the night that you went up
27 there and saw your brother on the bed with Mr.
28 Jackson with the events that you’ve described to the 1191
 

 
1 jury yesterday, late yesterday.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now, with regard to the next photograph,
4 People’s 82 -- is that People’s 82.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. With regard to that view, what
7 is that.
8 A. That’s the view of the bed from the
9 stairway.
10 Q. Now, with regard to that particular
11 photograph, were the lighting conditions the same or
12 different than depicted in this photograph.
13 A. Different.
14 Q. And how were they different.
15 A. The lights above the bed were off.
16 Q. And what was the light -- the source of the
17 light when you made your observations on the two
18 occasions.
19 A. The lighting was from the stairs.
20 Q. Now, you see the -- the comforter, or the
21 cover of the bed there.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us whether or not that was the
24 same comforter or bed covering that was on the bed
25 at the time that you were visiting the ranch back in
26 February and March of 2003.
27 A. It was.
28 Q. And on the night that you said that you saw 1192
 

 
1 your brother on the bed on the first occasion with
2 Mr. Jackson, was that comforter on the bed on that
3 occasion.
4 A. No. It was rolled down.
5 Q. Rolled down where.
6 A. On the floor.
7 Q. And so what was the surface of the bed at
8 that point.
9 A. Another blanket.
10 Q. Do you recall what color that blanket was.
11 A. No. It was like red. It was different
12 colors.
13 Q. All right. Now, with regard to the second
14 time that you saw your brother on the bed with Mr.
15 Jackson that you described to the jury yesterday,
16 where -- where -- what was the condition of that
17 comforter at that time, the blue comforter.
18 A. Rolled up and on the floor.
19 Q. So it was the same both times.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. You can put that down, if you like.
22 Do you remember whether or not on the night
23 that you saw Mr. Jackson -- on the first occasion
24 when you saw Mr. Jackson on the bed with your
25 brother, whether or not the screen, the movie
26 screen, was up or down.
27 A. It was down.
28 Q. So it was in the same condition that it is 1193
 

 
1 now.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how about on the second occasion.
4 A. It was up.
5 Q. Now, at any time while you were at the ranch
6 from the time you got back from Miami till the time
7 that you left for the last time, did Mr. Jackson
8 ever make any statements to you about -- other
9 than -- about your sister, about not telling things.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 MR. SNEDDON: What did he say. I didn’t
13 hear what he said.
14 I’m sorry. I didn’t hear the Court’s
15 ruling.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: At any time while you were
18 at the ranch during the period of time from Miami
19 till the time that you left, did you have any other
20 conversations with Mr. Jackson that you haven’t told
21 us about. Just “Yes” or “No.”
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And with regard to those
24 conversations, what topics have you not told us
25 about so far in your testimony that you had a
26 discussion with Mr. Jackson about.
27 A. There was one time Michael told me -- well,
28 it was me, my brother and Aldo were on the bed, and 1194
 

 
1 he was telling us not to tell anything that
2 happened, “Not even if they put a gun to your head.”
3 Q. Did he say why.
4 A. No.
5 MR. SNEDDON: No further questions, Your
6 Honor.
7 THE COURT: Cross-examine.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor.
9
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. MESEREAU:
12 Q. Good morning.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Mr. Arvizo, we’ve never spoken before,
15 right.
16 A. No.
17 Q. We’ve never met each other before, right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you say “Yes,” we actually haven’t met,
20 right.
21 A. What.
22 Q. You’ve never met me before, right.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you say “Yes,” do you mean we’ve met or
25 we haven’t met.
26 A. We haven’t met.
27 Q. Okay. My name is Thomas Mesereau. Okay.
28 A. Okay. 1195
 

 
1 Q. And I speak for Mr. Jackson. All right.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. I’m on his side. You know that.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, I’m going to ask you a bunch of
6 questions. Okay.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. And I’m going to ask you some questions
9 about some things you said in the courtroom. All
10 right.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. If anything I say is not clear to you, don’t
13 answer it. Okay.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Just tell me, “I don’t understand.”
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Is that all right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If I say something that seems confusing, for
20 whatever reason, just tell me, “I’m confused. Could
21 you repeat the question.” Is that okay.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. We don’t want you to answer anything if you
24 don’t really understand what I’m asking you. Is
25 that understood.
26 A. Okay.
27 Q. Okay. Now, you’ve testified before today,
28 right. 1196
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How many times have you testified under oath
3 before today.
4 A. Three times.
5 Q. Three times. And could you please tell the
6 jury the three times that you testified under oath
7 before -- I said “today.” I meant yesterday. Okay.
8 Please tell the jury the other three times that you
9 testified under oath.
10 A. Two times at the grand jury, and one time
11 yesterday.
12 Q. Are they the only times you’ve testified
13 under oath before.
14 A. I think so.
15 Q. Do you know for sure.
16 A. Not really.
17 Q. Well, you did testify under oath in a
18 deposition in the J.C. Penney case, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And how old were you when you testified in
21 that case under oath.
22 A. I don’t remember, but I was really young.
23 Q. Were you about ten.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you nine.
26 A. I think I was eight.
27 Q. You were eight. Okay.
28 Was that the first time you ever testified 1197
 

 
1 under oath.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And you testified under oath in
4 support of what your mother was claiming happened to
5 her, right.
6 A. What happened to us.
7 Q. “What happened to us.” You, Gavin and your
8 mother, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Let me ask you some questions about
11 the alarm system at Neverland.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. You were interviewed by the police on
14 numerous occasions about what happened at Neverland,
15 right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know about how many times you’ve been
18 interviewed by the police about what happened at
19 Neverland.
20 A. Twice.
21 Q. And do you remember giving them descriptions
22 about the alarm system.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You have given the police different
25 descriptions of the alarm system from time to time,
26 right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And let me ask you a couple of questions 1198
 

 
1 about the alarm. Is there an alarm that goes off
2 when someone enters Michael Jackson’s bedroom.
3 A. Through the hallway or through his bedroom.
4 Q. Let’s start with the hallway.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is there an alarm that goes off when you
7 enter Michael Jackson’s hallway.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How do you know that there’s an alarm that
10 goes off when you enter Michael Jackson’s hallway.
11 A. Because while you’re walking through the
12 hallway, you can hear it.
13 Q. And have you heard it before.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you hear the alarm that goes off
16 when you enter Michael Jackson’s hallway.
17 A. Every time you walk through it.
18 Q. How many times do you think you’ve heard
19 that alarm go off.
20 A. A lot of times.
21 Q. And it’s pretty loud, isn’t it.
22 A. Not really.
23 Q. Well, do you know why the alarm is there.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Jackson, “Why is the
26 alarm there.”
27 A. No.
28 Q. You have set the alarm off yourself, haven’t 1199
 

 
1 you.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How many times have you set the alarm off
4 yourself when walking through Michael Jackson’s
5 hallway.
6 A. It’s not an alarm. It’s just a bell.
7 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, I’m sorry, it’s
8 hard to hear the witness here.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You say it’s not an alarm,
10 it’s just a bell.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it an electric bell.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How do you know it’s electric.
15 A. Because it doesn’t sound real.
16 Q. It doesn’t sound real.
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. It sounds like a loud bell, doesn’t it.
19 A. It sounds electric.
20 Q. Have you ever tried to turn that alarm
21 system off.
22 A. I don’t know how to.
23 Q. Did you ever ask anyone, “How do you turn
24 that alarm system off.”
25 A. No.
26 Q. Okay. So, as far as you know, every time
27 you’ve walked through that hallway, that bell has
28 gone off, right. 1200
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And your understanding is that the purpose
3 of that bell is to let Michael Jackson know if
4 somebody goes through his hallway, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That’s the purpose of the alarm, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you ever have any discussion with any
9 security guard at Neverland about that alarm system.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever ask anyone, “How does it work.”
12 A. No.
13 Q. You said you got a code from security guards
14 at Neverland, correct.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And what code did you get from security
17 guards at Neverland.
18 A. The master code.
19 Q. And do you know what security guard gave
20 that to you.
21 A. No. I don’t remember.
22 Q. And what is the master code.
23 A. 1849.
24 Q. And what does it do.
25 A. It gets you into all the doors in Neverland.
26 Q. Is that every door at Neverland.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Is that every door in every room. 1201
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And would that master code get you into
3 Michael’s children’s bedroom.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You’ve been in that bedroom, correct.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You’ve been in both of them, right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You’ve been in both of his children’s
10 bedrooms many times, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you’ve been in other rooms in the main
13 house, correct.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You’ve been into what other rooms in the
16 main house.
17 A. His room, Michael’s room. Prince and
18 Paris’s room. I think that -- I think those are the
19 doors -- oh, and then the two doors to enter the
20 main house.
21 Q. Have you been into any other rooms in the
22 main house.
23 A. The kitchen room. The living room. The
24 kitchen. Those are the only rooms I’ve been in.
25 Q. When did you get the code that lets you into
26 every room in the house.
27 A. A little after the Miami trip.
28 Q. You had been into every room in the house 1202
 

 
1 before you went to Miami, hadn’t you.
2 A. No.
3 Q. You had not been into every room in the
4 house before you went to Miami.
5 A. Not every room.
6 Q. Didn’t you go into the main house when Chris
7 Tucker was there and Michael Jackson was absent.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you went upstairs when Chris Tucker was
10 there and Michael Jackson was absent, didn’t you.
11 A. No.
12 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, I think we’re
13 having trouble hearing, hearing the witness. If he
14 could just talk a little louder.
15 THE COURT: Everyone seems to be hearing.
16 MR. SANGER: Sometimes you can’t.
17 THE COURT: The audience is all nodding
18 affirmatively.
19 THE JURY: (In unison) We’re not.
20 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you. We can’t hear.
21 We can’t hear.
22 MR. MESEREAU: I didn’t want to instruct the
23 witness. I didn’t think it was my -- it was
24 appropriate. If the Court would, I’d appreciate it,
25 Your Honor.
26 THE COURT: You need to speak up. People
27 right there can’t hear you.
28 THE WITNESS: Okay. 1203
 

 
1 MR. MESEREAU: Because some people didn’t
2 hear, I’m going to go over a little bit of this
3 again.
4 Q. How many times were you at Neverland before
5 the Miami trip.
6 A. I don’t know exactly.
7 Q. Approximately.
8 A. I don’t know exactly.
9 Q. I’m just asking if you can estimate.
10 A. Ten.
11 Q. Ten. And of those ten trips, how many do
12 you think Michael was present at. I’m talking about
13 the trips before you went to Miami.
14 A. I don’t know. I know it was more than
15 twice.
16 Q. Okay. When did you first learn there was an
17 alarm system when you entered the hallway to go to
18 Michael Jackson’s bedroom.
19 A. First time we entered his bedroom.
20 Q. And approximately when was that, if you
21 know.
22 A. I don’t know.
23 Q. And did you see Michael Jackson do anything
24 to the alarm system --
25 A. No.
26 Q. -- when you first entered his bedroom.
27 A. No.
28 Q. So it went off, didn’t it. 1204
 

 
1 A. What.
2 Q. When you first entered Michael Jackson’s
3 bedroom, the alarm system in the hallway went off,
4 right.
5 A. The bell.
6 Q. The bell that is an alarm system, right.
7 A. I didn’t think it was an alarm system.
8 Q. You didn’t think the bell that went off when
9 you entered the hallway was an alarm system.
10 A. Well, because I’m thinking, like, an alarm,
11 like.
12 Q. But you knew it was an electric bell,
13 correct.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you knew anytime you entered that
16 hallway it went off, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you first went into the hallway, you
19 heard that bell, didn’t you.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You never saw Michael Jackson dismantle that
22 system, did you.
23 A. No.
24 Q. In fact, every time you’ve walked into that
25 hallway to go into Michael Jackson’s bedroom, that
26 bell has rung, right.
27 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object, asked and
28 answered. 1205
 

 
1 MR. MESEREAU: I didn’t -- excuse me, Your
2 Honor, I don’t think I’ve ever asked that question.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Sure. Every time you --
6 THE COURT: I’ll have the court reporter
7 repeat it.
8 MR. MESEREAU: I’m sorry.
9 (Record read.)
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, during the two times
12 you claim you saw Michael Jackson touch your brother
13 in bed, that bell went off, didn’t it.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When you walk into the hallway, Mr. Arvizo,
16 is there another alarm system.
17 A. Which hallway.
18 Q. The hallway going into Mr. Jackson’s
19 bedroom. Once you go through the hallway, the bell
20 goes off, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when you try to go into Michael
23 Jackson’s bedroom upstairs, is there any other
24 alarm.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Have you ever had heard of there being
27 another alarm that goes off as you try to enter
28 Michael Jackson’s bedroom. 1206
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. You’re aware that if you’re in
3 Michael Jackson’s bedroom upstairs, you can hear
4 that bell.
5 A. When the doors are open.
6 Q. Pardon me.
7 A. When the doors are open.
8 Q. Well, the purpose of it is to let Michael
9 Jackson know, if he’s upstairs, if anybody’s come
10 into the hallway, isn’t it.
11 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to that.
12 Calls for speculation on the part of this witness.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, did Mr.
15 Jackson ever tell you that the reason that alarm
16 system goes off is to let him know if anyone is
17 trying to enter his bedroom.
18 A. No.
19 Q. So you were not aware of that.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. You have heard that alarm system go
22 off when you were upstairs, haven’t you.
23 A. When the doors open.
24 Q. Yes. You’re saying when the door’s closed,
25 Michael Jackson can’t hear the alarm system.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Is that what you’re saying.
28 A. Yes. 1207
 

 
1 Q. Did you discuss yesterday’s testimony with
2 anyone last night.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Talk to your mom about it.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Talk to your dad about it.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Talk to your sister about it.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Talk to Gavin about it.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Talk to the D.A. about it.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you know what questions Mr. Sneddon was
15 going to ask you when you came in this morning.
16 A. One or two of them.
17 Q. Okay. How did you know about one or two of
18 them.
19 A. He called me this morning to clarify
20 something.
21 Q. He called you at home.
22 A. Yeah -- yes.
23 Q. So you did discuss yesterday’s testimony
24 with someone, didn’t you.
25 A. No, today.
26 Q. You did discuss what you said yesterday with
27 Mr. Sneddon before you took the stand this morning,
28 right. 1208
 

 
1 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
2 object to that question. Assumes a fact not in
3 evidence, that it was yesterday’s materials we
4 discussed.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, Your Honor. Mr.
6 Sneddon’s testifying. Move to strike his comments.
7 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken.
8 Mr. Sneddon, you have been using speaking
9 responses, which I do not allow.
10 MR. SNEDDON: All right, Your Honor. Then I
11 object. Assumes facts not in evidence.
12 THE COURT: I’ve heard your objection. The
13 objection is overruled.
14 Would the court reporter read back the
15 question to the witness, please.
16 (Record read.)
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you speak to Mr.
19 Sneddon between your testimony yesterday and your
20 testifying today.
21 A. Yes. In the morning.
22 Q. And about what time was that.
23 A. 7:00.
24 Q. Did Mr. Sneddon talk to you about what he
25 was going to ask you today.
26 A. He was asking me -- he was trying to clarify
27 if -- about some things.
28 Q. Well, he told you that he was going to ask 1209
 

 
1 you about Aldo, correct.
2 A. No.
3 Q. He never told you he was going to ask you
4 anything about Aldo today.
5 A. Um, he didn’t say. He just said -- he asked
6 me if Aldo was there the whole time.
7 Q. And did he tell you he was going to ask you
8 a question about that this morning.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did he tell you he was going to ask you
11 about any photographs this morning.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you ever seen the photographs you just
14 identified before.
15 A. Um, yes.
16 Q. When did you see them before.
17 A. On Sunday.
18 Q. On Sunday.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Sneddon showed you a bunch of
21 photographs and kept asking you a question, “Is that
22 an accurate depiction.” Remember those questions.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Had he asked you those questions before.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Had he showed you photographs before and
27 said to you, “When you come into court, I’m going to
28 ask you if that’s an accurate depiction”; remember. 1210
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you remember those questions he asked
3 you.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Sneddon showed you
6 photographs in the courtroom and said, “Is this an
7 accurate depiction of what’s in the photograph.”
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Had he told you before you testified
10 yesterday that he was going to ask you that
11 question.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is that the first time you ever heard him
14 ask you that question.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You went through photograph after
17 photograph, and when he said to you, “Is that an
18 accurate depiction.” You always said “Yes,” right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was that the first time he’d ever asked you
21 that question in the courtroom.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, you made a lot of statements that this
24 was an accurate depiction, and then afterwards told
25 the jury that there were things in the photographs
26 that you didn’t think were accurate, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And that was because you have a detailed 1211
 

 
1 memory of what went on when you used to go to
2 Neverland, right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You had never gone over that with Mr.
5 Sneddon or any other member of the prosecution
6 before, right.
7 A. About what.
8 Q. About those photos.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Before you testified yesterday, had
11 you ever discussed what you were going to say with
12 your mom.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Before you testified yesterday, had you ever
15 discussed with Gavin what you were going to say.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Before you testified yesterday, had you ever
18 discussed with your sister Davellin what you were
19 going to say.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you ever discussed this case with your
22 mom.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Ever discussed this case with Gavin.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Have you ever discussed this case with
27 Davellin.
28 A. No. 1212
 

 
1 Q. Have you ever discussed this case with an
2 attorney.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who.
5 A. Tom, Gordon and Ron.
6 Q. Excuse me.
7 A. Tom, Gordon and Ron.
8 Q. I’m sorry, we’re having trouble hearing the
9 name.
10 A. Tom, Gordon and Ron.
11 Q. Tom, Gordon and Ron.
12 Have you ever discussed this case with Larry
13 Feldman.
14 A. No, I don’t remember.
15 Q. Do you know who Larry Feldman is.
16 A. I think so.
17 Q. Who do you think he is.
18 A. I don’t know what he does.
19 Q. Okay. You never heard the name “Larry
20 Feldman” before.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Have you ever heard the name “William
23 Dickerman” before.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And have you met with Attorney William
26 Dickerman before.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. How many times do you think you’ve met with 1213
 

 
1 Attorney William Dickerman.
2 A. Once.
3 Q. And that was before you ever spoke to anyone
4 with the sheriff’s department, right.
5 A. I don’t know.
6 Q. Well, do you know whether or not William
7 Dickerman sent your entire family to Attorney Larry
8 Feldman.
9 A. No. I don’t know.
10 Q. And you don’t recall ever meeting with
11 Attorney Larry Feldman.
12 A. I do recall meeting with him, but I don’t
13 know who sent us to him.
14 Q. And how many times have you met with
15 Attorney Larry Feldman.
16 A. Probably twice.
17 Q. And do you know approximately when that was.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was it in the last year.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Last two years.
22 A. I don’t remember.
23 Q. Okay. Was your mom at that meeting.
24 A. We never had a meeting. Well, I don’t -- I
25 don’t remember.
26 Q. Okay. Now, you’ve given different
27 descriptions at different times of what you say
28 happened in Michael Jackson’s bedroom, right. 1214
 

 
1 A. I don’t understand.
2 Q. Well, you’ve been asked to describe many
3 times what happened in Michael Jackson’s bedroom at
4 Neverland, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You’ve been asked by the sheriffs a couple
7 of times, right.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Well, you’ve been interviewed by the Santa
10 Barbara Sheriffs about what you claim happened in
11 Michael Jackson’s bedroom, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they’ve asked you to describe what went
14 on in Michael Jackson’s bedroom, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you’ve also been before a grand jury to
17 testify about what went on in Michael Jackson’s
18 bedroom, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You’ve also met with a psychologist named
21 Stanley Katz, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And Stanley Katz works for Larry Feldman,
24 right.
25 A. I didn’t know that.
26 Q. Well, you knew that Larry Feldman sent you
27 to Stanley Katz, right.
28 A. I didn’t know. 1215
 

 
1 Q. Never heard anything about that.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Your mother never told you that.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Well, when you met with Psychologist Stanley
6 Katz, you also describe what you claim happened in
7 Michael Jackson’s bedroom, right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And would you agree that you’ve given
10 different descriptions almost every time that you
11 have described it.
12 A. I don’t remember exactly what I said.
13 Q. Well, you’ve given different descriptions
14 about what Michael Jackson was wearing, right.
15 A. I don’t remember exactly what I said.
16 Q. You’ve given different descriptions of what
17 Gavin was supposed to be wearing, right.
18 A. I don’t remember exactly what I said.
19 Q. You’ve given different descriptions about
20 what you claim Michael Jackson did in the bedroom,
21 right.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Well, there were times you said that Michael
24 Jackson put his hand on top of your brother’s
25 underwear, right.
26 A. I don’t remember saying that.
27 Q. And there are other times you said he put
28 his hand inside his underwear, right. 1216
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And there are times you’ve said your brother
3 was wearing pajamas, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There are times you said he was wearing
6 underwear, right.
7 A. I don’t remember.
8 Q. And there are times you said that Michael
9 Jackson touched his butt and not his crotch, right.
10 A. When was this.
11 Q. When you did some interviews, right.
12 A. About what.
13 Q. About what Michael Jackson, you claim, was
14 doing in his bedroom, right.
15 A. I never said he touched his butt.
16 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that when you saw
17 Michael Jackson in bed with your brother, he was
18 rubbing his butt.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Never said that at any time to anybody.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Never said it to Mr. Katz, right.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Never said it to the sheriffs, right.
25 A. No.
26 Q. And never said it to a grand jury, right.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Okay. You indicated yesterday that Michael 1217
 

 
1 Jackson was trying to teach you and your brother
2 cuss words, right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And was that the truth.
5 A. He wasn’t trying to teach us. He was just
6 telling us to cuss.
7 Q. Did you ever use cuss words before you met
8 Michael Jackson.
9 A. Not really.
10 Q. Did you ever know what those cuss words even
11 meant.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. When you were -- let me strike that.
14 Let me rephrase.
15 You had your deposition taken in the J.C.
16 Penney case on December 15th, the year 2000, right.
17 A. I don’t remember the dates.
18 Q. Would it refresh your memory if I just show
19 you the deposition date.
20 A. Sure.
21 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, have you had a
26 chance to look at that page.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And it says, “December 15th, 2000,” right. 1218
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Where were you living during
3 December 15th, 2000.
4 A. I was living at the Soto address.
5 Q. Well, in that deposition, you said you were
6 living on Raymer Street; do you remember.
7 A. Yes. No, I don’t remember the deposition.
8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
9 show you that part of your deposition.
10 A. Sure.
11 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
15 look at that page of your deposition of the J.C.
16 Penney case.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And does it refresh your recollection that
19 you said you were living on Raymer Street at that
20 point.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, where is Raymer Street.
23 A. It’s in El Monte.
24 Q. Okay. Is that where your grandparents live.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Okay. And when you answered these questions
27 in the J.C. Penney case under oath, you were ten
28 years old, right. 1219
 

 
1 A. I think so.
2 Q. Okay. In that deposition, you were asked
3 whether you had discussed the facts of the J.C.
4 Penney case with anyone before you were deposed,
5 right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember that. And you said you had
8 not discussed the facts --
9 A. Actually, I don’t remember that question.
10 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
11 show you that page.
12 A. It’s okay.
13 Q. Huh.
14 A. It’s okay.
15 Q. What do you mean, it’s --
16 A. Oh, okay.
17 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: Where’s the question.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Right here.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
23 look at that page in your deposition in the J.C.
24 Penney case.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that you
27 said you had not discussed the facts of that case
28 with your mother or anybody else. 1220
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And was that true.
3 A. What.
4 Q. Was it true that before you answered
5 questions under oath in the J.C. Penney case that
6 you had never discussed the facts of that case with
7 anyone.
8 A. After the --
9 Q. Between the time the events happened, or
10 that you claim happened in the parking lot at J.C.
11 Penney, and the time you answered questions under
12 oath, you had not discussed the facts with anybody,
13 right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. You hadn’t discussed the facts with
16 your mother, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Hadn’t discussed them with Gavin, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Hadn’t discussed them with Davellin, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you hadn’t discussed them with your
23 father David, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you indicated to the jury that you’ve
26 done some training as a comedian; is that right.
27 A. It wasn’t really actual training. We just
28 did it for fun. 1221
 

 
1 Q. Pardon me.
2 A. It wasn’t actually training. We just did it
3 for fun.
4 Q. Okay. But did you take a class.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you take an acting class.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you ever modeled.
9 A. That was for our -- our dance group that we
10 used to be in.
11 Q. Where did you model.
12 A. I don’t remember.
13 Q. Well, you claim you have modeled at J.C.
14 Penney’s, right.
15 A. I don’t remember the store.
16 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
17 you your deposition in the J.C. Penney case.
18 A. Sure.
19 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
22 look at that page.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that you
25 claim you were modeling at J.C. Penney.
26 A. Not really.
27 Q. Were you modeling at J.C. Penney.
28 A. I think so. 1222
 

 
1 Q. Pardon me.
2 A. I think so.
3 Q. You think so.
4 A. Yeah. Since it says it on the -- there.
5 Q. Well, please tell the jury what the truth
6 is. Were you really modeling at J.C. Penney.
7 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to that
8 question as argumentative.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 The jury is admonished to disregard Mr.
11 Mesereau’s remark.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Were you modeling at J.C.
13 Penney on that day.
14 A. What day.
15 Q. The day the events happened in the parking
16 lot.
17 A. No. That was -- that was way before then.
18 Q. But you testified under oath that you were
19 there to model, didn’t you.
20 A. No. I was there -- I was there to model
21 about -- years ago. We were just waiting for our
22 mom to come out of her job interview.
23 Q. Correct me if I’m wrong, when you were
24 testifying under oath in a deposition, you said
25 under oath that you were there to model that day,
26 didn’t you.
27 A. Not that day. We were there before to
28 model. Not at that J.C. Penney’s. 1223
 

 
1 Q. Did you model before.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When was that.
4 A. It was a long time ago when we were little.
5 It was a long time ago when we were little.
6 Q. Now, you testified under oath that your
7 brother Gavin took some clothes that weren’t paid
8 for into the parking lot, right.
9 A. I don’t remember.
10 Q. You don’t remember saying that.
11 A. No. It was long ago.
12 Q. Has anyone told you to give a response like
13 that to my questions.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Has anyone told you to say “I don’t
16 remember” when you respond to my questions.
17 A. If I don’t remember, I don’t remember.
18 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you remember testifying
19 that your brother went into the parking lot with
20 clothes that weren’t paid for to trick your father
21 into buying them.
22 A. I don’t remember.
23 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
24 you your testimony.
25 A. Yes.
26 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
27 THE COURT: Yes.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 1224
 

 
1 look at that page.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
4 you said under oath in the deposition.
5 A. A little bit.
6 Q. Well, you said your brother wanted to trick
7 your dad into buying clothes, right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you said that that’s why he went into
10 the mall with the unpaid clothes, right.
11 A. He went into the mall.
12 Q. Into the parking lot in the mall.
13 A. Oh.
14 Q. Let me restate it.
15 You testified under oath that your brother
16 left J.C. Penney’s with clothes that weren’t paid
17 for because he was trying to trick your dad into
18 buying them, right.
19 A. Yes, but the paragraph wasn’t over.
20 Q. Okay. What else did you say about that.
21 A. Um -- could I reread it.
22 Q. Sure.
23 May I return, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
26 Okay.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
28 look at the page again. 1225
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And does it refresh your recollection about
3 what you testified to that day.
4 A. A little bit.
5 Q. Okay. How has it refreshed your
6 recollection.
7 A. It said right there that -- that my dad took
8 them and put them back.
9 Q. Okay. Now, you said that Gavin wouldn’t
10 steal because he wants to be a priest, right.
11 A. I don’t remember saying that.
12 Q. You said he wants to be a priest and a
13 comedian, right.
14 A. I don’t remember saying that.
15 Q. Well, did anyone ask you to say that, if you
16 recall.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Before you went into that deposition to
19 testify under oath, did anyone tell you if you’re
20 asked if Gavin stole, say, “No, he wants to be a
21 comedian and a priest”.
22 A. I don’t remember nothing in that case.
23 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
24 show you another page.
25 A. Yes.
26 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
27 THE COURT: Yes.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 1226
 

 
1 look at that page.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
4 you said.
5 A. A little bit, yes.
6 Q. And didn’t you say that Gavin wants to be a
7 priest and a comedian when he grows up.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you said that he wouldn’t steal, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. But no one told you to say that
12 before the deposition, right.
13 A. Hmm, what was it. Say it again.
14 Q. Yeah. Nobody told you to make that
15 statement before you went into that deposition and
16 testified, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you testified under oath that security
19 guards from J.C. Penney approached your mother in
20 the parking lot and said, “We’re going to fuck you
21 up,” and called your dad “a fucking asshole,” right.
22 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
23 object to the question as a violation of the Court’s
24 ruling.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 THE WITNESS: I don’t remember the exact
27 words.
28 THE COURT: Just a minute. You don’t have to 1227
 

 
1 answer that question.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: But you’re telling the
3 jury that before you met Michael Jackson, you had
4 never used the “F” word, right.
5 A. I spelled it out for them.
6 Q. Spelled it out for you.
7 A. The people that were interviewing us or --
8 I didn’t say it.
9 Q. Okay. And in your personal life as a young
10 boy, you had never used that word once, right.
11 A. No.
12 Q. The first time you heard it was in the J.C.
13 Penney parking lot, right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, you testified that your mother had been
16 beaten up in the parking lot, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You said that her private parts had been
19 touched.
20 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
21 object. Same objection.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you went to Stanley
24 Katz, you knew he was a psychologist, right.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Did you know he was a therapist.
27 A. Not really.
28 Q. Had you been to a therapist ever before. 1228
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When was that.
3 A. During the J.C. Penney case.
4 Q. Okay. Did you go with your mom.
5 A. I don’t remember.
6 Q. Okay. Well, your whole family went to a
7 therapist in that case, right.
8 A. I don’t remember.
9 Q. Don’t remember at all.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. MESEREAU: May we approach, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: No.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In the J.C. Penney case,
15 you testified to what these guards were doing to
16 your mother, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
19 object. Same objection.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And that was the first
22 time you ever testified, right.
23 A. When.
24 Q. In the J.C. Penney deposition.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And nobody told you what to say before it,
27 right.
28 A. Yes. 1229
 

 
1 Q. Never discussed it with your mom before you
2 went into the deposition, right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Just like you’ve never discussed the facts
5 of this case with your mom at any time, right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. When was the first time that you ever
8 discussed what you claim Mr. Jackson had done to
9 you.
10 A. What.
11 Q. When is the first time you ever discussed
12 with anybody what you say Mr. Jackson did to you.
13 A. I think it was with Dr. Katz.
14 THE COURT: Excuse me.
15 If you can’t hear him, I’d like to have hand
16 signs. There’s no way I can know. And that way I
17 can just have him speak up. The people in the
18 audience are hearing him fine. But when he drops
19 off, I can’t tell whether you’re hearing him or not.
20 Sorry, Counsel. Go ahead.
21 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
22 Q. When is the first time you ever discussed
23 what you claim Mr. Jackson did to you.
24 A. I think it was with Dr. Katz.
25 Q. Was that before you ever discussed any of
26 this with any police officer.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And you discussed what you claim Mr. Jackson 1230
 

 
1 did to you with Attorney Larry Feldman, right.
2 A. I don’t remember.
3 Q. Do you remember one way or the other.
4 A. I didn’t understand that question.
5 Q. Sure. Are you saying you don’t remember
6 ever discussing this case with Attorney Larry
7 Feldman.
8 A. No, I don’t remember.
9 Q. Okay. But you do remember meeting with
10 Larry Feldman, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And your mom was there, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Gavin was there, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember saying in the J.C. Penney
17 deposition that your mom and dad never fight.
18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
19 object. Same objection.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember saying
22 that.
23 A. Not really.
24 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
25 you a page from that deposition.
26 A. Yes.
27 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
28 THE COURT: Yes. 1231
 

 
1 MR. MESEREAU: Oops.
2 THE WITNESS: That’s okay.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
4 look at that page from the deposition.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
7 you said.
8 A. A little bit.
9 Q. And didn’t you say under oath that your
10 mother and dad never fight.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was that true.
13 A. Hmm, I really don’t -- sometimes.
14 Q. I’m sorry, I didn’t understand your answer.
15 When you told -- excuse me. Let me rephrase.
16 When you stated under oath in the J.C.
17 Penney deposition in the year 2000 that your mom and
18 dad never fight, were you telling the truth.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did someone tell you to lie in that
21 deposition.
22 A. I don’t remember.
23 Q. You don’t remember at all.
24 A. No. It happened a long time ago.
25 Q. You also said in that deposition under oath
26 that your dad never hit you; do you remember that.
27 A. Not really.
28 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show 1232
 

 
1 you that page.
2 A. Sure.
3 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
7 look at that page of your deposition.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And does it refresh your recollection about
10 what you said that day.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were asked if your dad had ever hit you,
13 and you said, “Never,” right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was that the truth.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did someone ever tell you to lie about that
18 under oath in your deposition in the J.C. Penney
19 case.
20 A. I really don’t remember.
21 Q. Don’t remember at all.
22 A. No. I don’t remember nothing from there.
23 THE BAILIFF: Judge, they can’t hear him.
24 They can’t hear him.
25 THE COURT: You can’t hear in the back. The
26 witness, is it.
27 You need to lean into the microphone like
28 that. 1233
 

 
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have your -- excuse me.
3 Has -- did your father ever coach you about what to
4 say in the J.C. Penney deposition.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did your mother ever coach you about what to
7 say in the J.C. Penney deposition.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Please tell the jury why you lied under
10 oath.
11 A. I don’t remember. It was, like, five years
12 ago. I don’t remember nothing.
13 Q. Have you discussed the J.C. Penney
14 deposition with any of the prosecutors.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you discussed the J.C. Penney
17 deposition with your mom.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Have you discussed the J.C. Penney
20 deposition with your dad.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Have you ever discussed the J.C. Penney
23 deposition with Gavin.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you ever discussed the J.C. Penney
26 deposition with Davellin.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Have you ever discussed the J.C. Penney 1234
 

 
1 deposition with any attorney.
2 A. No.
3 Q. You had an attorney representing you at the
4 J.C. Penney deposition, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who was that.
7 A. I don’t remember.
8 Q. Have you ever discussed this case with your
9 grandmother.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Have you ever discussed it with your
12 grandfather.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever discussed the J.C. Penney
15 lawsuit with your grandmother.
16 A. No.
17 Q. And have you ever discussed the J.C. Penney
18 lawsuit with your grandfather.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Was Michael Jackson the first person
21 you ever heard use a cuss word.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Who was, if you remember.
24 A. It was a kid at school.
25 Q. That’s the first time you ever heard those
26 words.
27 A. I don’t remember.
28 Q. But you’ve never used them yourself, right. 1235
 

 
1 A. Yes, I’ve used them.
2 Q. Do you use them now.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Never use them.
5 A. What do you mean.
6 Q. Well, in your personal life right now, do
7 you ever use the “F” word.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you ever use the “B” word.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You indicated yesterday that you visited
12 Neverland with Chris Tucker when Michael Jackson
13 wasn’t there, right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, how did you end up going there with
16 Chris Tucker.
17 A. I don’t know. I think it was my brother
18 that set it up. I don’t remember.
19 Q. Okay. Do you know kind of how you ended up
20 going there with Chris.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Who drove you to Neverland during
23 those trips that you went with Chris Tucker.
24 A. During all the trips.
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. A bus driver.
27 Q. You went by bus to Neverland with Chris
28 Tucker. 1236
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Was it a private bus.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know how that was arranged.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. Who went on those bus rides.
7 A. Me and my brother, my sister, Chris, Chris’s
8 apprentice. I don’t know. There was other people,
9 too.
10 Q. Okay. And did you know that Michael Jackson
11 was not going to be there when you arrived.
12 A. I don’t remember all the times.
13 Q. Well, when you went with Chris Tucker, did
14 you think Michael Jackson was going to be there.
15 A. Probably.
16 Q. Excuse me.
17 A. Probably.
18 Q. Okay. Do you know if Chris told you he
19 would be there.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Why did you think Michael would be there.
22 A. I don’t know. I don’t remember.
23 Q. By the way, do you remember yesterday when
24 you told the jury that on the plane you looked at a
25 soda can that Michael Jackson had and you saw a red
26 ring around it.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. You told that to the police in one of your 1237
 

 
1 interviews also, didn’t you.
2 A. I think so.
3 Q. You also told the police that you looked in
4 the can and saw white wine, correct.
5 A. When.
6 Q. When you told them there was a red ring
7 around the can, you then told them you looked in the
8 can and saw white wine, remember.
9 A. I don’t remember saying that.
10 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
11 you a transcript from a police interview.
12 A. Sure.
13 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, what page.
16 THE WITNESS: The lady might have misheard
17 me.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me, what did you
19 just say.
20 A. I never looked into the can.
21 Q. You said a lady might have misheard you.
22 A. The -- I don’t know what her -- what the --
23 Q. The court reporter.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Oh, you think the court reporter made a
26 mistake.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Because, as you’ve seen, it says you told 1238
 

 
1 the police there was a red ring around the can and
2 then you looked in and saw white wine, right.
3 That’s what it says, doesn’t it.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But what you’re telling the jury is you
6 think the court reporter made a mistake.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you have a lot of experience with court
9 reporters.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you tell Michael Jackson you wanted to
12 be an actor.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever tell Michael Jackson you wanted
15 to make videos.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever make any videos with Michael
18 Jackson.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When did you do that.
21 A. A long time ago.
22 Q. And just approximately when was that, if you
23 know.
24 A. I don’t know.
25 Q. Was it when you first met Michael Jackson.
26 A. I don’t know.
27 Q. Did you ever make a video at Neverland
28 yourself. 1239
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And please tell the jury when that was.
3 A. I don’t know when it was.
4 Q. And describe what you did when you made that
5 video.
6 A. I think we were -- I don’t remember exactly.
7 We were just talking about the animals and talking
8 about the ranch.
9 Q. And who is “we”.
10 A. Me and whoever happened to be there. Like
11 the zoo lady or train driver.
12 Q. And was that in the fall of 2002.
13 A. I don’t remember.
14 Q. Okay. Do you remember the approximate year
15 when you first went to Neverland.
16 A. 2000.
17 Q. And how do you know it was 2000.
18 A. I don’t know.
19 Q. Did somebody tell you it was the year 2000.
20 A. No, I just remember my brother had cancer in
21 the year 2000.
22 Q. Okay. Now, how long after your brother
23 contracted cancer did you and he visit Neverland, if
24 you know.
25 A. I don’t know.
26 Q. Was it a number of months.
27 A. I don’t know.
28 Q. Do you know if your brother was undergoing 1240
 

 
1 medical treatment when he first went to Neverland.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if you remember, had the treatment just
4 begun.
5 A. I don’t remember.
6 Q. What was your understanding about how your
7 brother first communicated with Michael Jackson.
8 A. By telephone.
9 Q. And did you hear about that right away, if
10 you know.
11 A. What.
12 Q. Did your brother tell you right away, “I
13 just spoke to Michael Jackson on the telephone”.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did he call you up and tell you that.
16 A. I was standing -- I was laying right next to
17 him.
18 Q. Okay. This was in the hospital.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And suddenly the phone rang and it
21 was Michael Jackson.
22 A. I didn’t know it was Michael Jackson.
23 Q. Okay. How did you find out it was him.
24 A. After my brother hung up.
25 Q. Now, in your police interviews, you keep
26 referring to David as “My biological father,” right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. You also refer to him as “My biological 1241
 

 
1 dad,” right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who told you to use the word “biological”.
4 A. I learned it in one of my English classes.
5 Q. Well, other members in your family have been
6 referring to him as their biological dad, right.
7 A. Yeah, and also my sister uses it.
8 Q. Did your mom ever tell you to refer to David
9 as your biological dad.
10 A. No.
11 Q. She never did once.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever hear your mother telling your
14 sister to refer to David as your biological dad.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Ever hear your mom tell Davellin to refer to
17 her father as her biological dad.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. That was something you came up with,
20 right.
21 A. Yes. This was after we met Jay, so we
22 didn’t think of my dad as a dad anymore. So that’s
23 why we called him a biological dad, because we were
24 calling Jay “Dad.”
25 Q. Now, you’ve been into Prince and Paris’s
26 bedroom, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And just please tell the jury who Prince and 1242
 

 
1 Paris are.
2 A. They’re Michael’s children.
3 Q. When you first went to Neverland, did you
4 meet Michael’s children.
5 A. I think so.
6 Q. Do you remember who introduced you to
7 Michael’s children.
8 A. I don’t remember.
9 Q. Did you see them on the first visit to
10 Neverland.
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. Pardon me.
13 A. I think so.
14 Q. Okay. And where did you first meet Prince
15 and Paris.
16 A. At Neverland.
17 Q. Do you know what ages they were when you
18 first met them.
19 A. I think they were three and four.
20 Q. And could you describe them to the jury.
21 A. They’re small. Small. One has blonde hair.
22 The other one has long brown curly hair. What else.
23 That’s all.
24 Q. And you told the jury that Prince and Paris
25 were in Miami when you made a trip to Miami, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And you told the jury that Prince and Paris
28 were in Michael’s suite, right. 1243
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when you first went into Michael’s
3 suite, Prince and Paris were there, right.
4 A. What part of the suite.
5 Q. Any part.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And when you went back on the plane
8 from Miami to Santa Barbara, Prince and Paris were
9 on the plane, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And two nannies were with them, right.
12 A. One nanny was with two kids, and the other
13 nanny was with the baby.
14 Q. Okay. And tell the jury who the baby was.
15 A. Michael’s son.
16 Q. Okay. Would you please describe the baby to
17 the jury.
18 A. Small.
19 Q. Okay. And who was the nanny with Michael’s
20 baby.
21 A. Her name was Patty.
22 Q. And who was the nanny with Prince and Paris.
23 A. Grace.
24 Q. And they’re all on the plane with you when
25 you go back from Miami, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And a physician was on the plane as well,
28 right. 1244
 

 
1 A. I didn’t know what his profession was.
2 Q. Okay. Did you know he was a doctor.
3 A. From his name, yes.
4 Q. Okay. You heard people call him “Doctor,”
5 right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And was it your understanding his name was
8 Farshshian.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. So Dr. Farshshian’s on the plane as
11 well, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you ever ask anyone whose doctor he was.
14 A. All I knew is that he was Michael’s doctor.
15 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, yesterday you told
16 Prosecutor Sneddon where everybody was sitting,
17 right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- you looked at this diagram, and you said,
22 “That’s a diagram of the inside of that plane,”
23 right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How did you know that was a diagram about
26 the inside of that plane.
27 A. Because that’s how it looked inside.
28 Q. Did you ever go over that diagram with any 1245
 

 
1 prosecutor before you testified.
2 A. I think so, yes.
3 Q. You think so.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you sure.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. You did do it, right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what prosecutor did you go over that
10 diagram with before you testified.
11 A. Um, let me remember. It was Tom.
12 Q. Is that Tom Sneddon.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And when did you do that with him.
15 A. On Sunday.
16 Q. Did he visit you on Sunday.
17 A. No, I visited him.
18 Q. Okay. At his office.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And did someone bring you to his
21 office.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know who that was.
24 A. It was Steve Robel.
25 Q. Okay. That’s a Santa Barbara sheriff,
26 right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And had you seen that diagram before Sunday. 1246
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did Mr. Sneddon tell you, “This is a diagram
3 of the inside of the plane”.
4 A. No. I knew it was a diagram. I was the one
5 that drew it up for Tom.
6 Q. So you drew the whole diagram up for
7 Prosecutor Sneddon.
8 A. No, I just drew a picture and I gave it to
9 Tom.
10 Q. Okay. Do you know where that picture is.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did -- you just gave it to Sneddon.
13 A. Yes. Well, it was in the beginning of this
14 case.
15 Q. I’m sorry. Pardon.
16 A. It was in the beginning of the case.
17 Q. Okay. So the beginning of this case, you
18 did a diagram of the interior of that plane.
19 A. I just did a drawing.
20 Q. Okay. A drawing of the plane that you flew
21 on from Miami, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And when you say, “At the beginning of this
24 case,” what do you mean.
25 A. It was before the grand jury.
26 Q. And do you know whatever happened to the
27 drawing.
28 A. No. 1247
 

 
1 Q. Did you remember where all the seats were --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- inside that plane.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And that’s what you drew in the
6 drawing, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did Mr. Sneddon tell you that the
9 diagram you had was based upon your drawing.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. He just came up with this and showed
12 it to you on Sunday, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did he ask you to put little initials
15 where everybody was sitting.
16 A. No. We did that yesterday.
17 Q. That was the first time you’d ever done
18 that.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. First time you’d ever looked at that drawing
21 and put initials where everybody was sitting.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you were with Mr. Sneddon on Sunday,
24 did you point out to him where people were sitting.
25 A. He told me not to.
26 Q. He told you not to tell him where people
27 were sitting.
28 A. Yes. 1248
 

 
1 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this: If he
2 showed you this diagram of the plane, do you know
3 why he would tell you, “Don’t tell me where people
4 are sitting”.
5 A. I was actually -- well, I wanted to see it.
6 Q. You wanted to see what.
7 A. I wanted to see the diagram.
8 Q. Okay. Did you ask him in advance that you
9 wanted to see the diagram.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. You’re sitting with Mr. Sneddon in a
12 Sunday meeting, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what time was that.
15 A. I don’t remember. It was afternoon.
16 Q. Afternoon. Okay.
17 Do you know about how long the meeting went.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you there alone with Prosecutor
20 Sneddon.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who else was there.
23 A. Steve Robel.
24 Q. Okay. Was Sheriff Robel talking.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Who first gave you the diagram.
27 A. Steve walked in with it.
28 Q. Okay. So he walks in with it and hands it 1249
 

 
1 to you, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And he asks you about the diagram, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you’re saying that Prosecutor Sneddon
6 said, “Don’t tell us where people were sitting”.
7 A. No, I was about to, but then he said, “No,
8 don’t tell me.” So I didn’t say nothing. I just
9 wanted to go over it by myself.
10 Q. You wanted to go over the diagram just by
11 yourself.
12 A. Oh, in my head.
13 Q. In your head.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. So correct me if I’m wrong, you
16 looked at this diagram; everybody was silent, and
17 you thought about it in your head, right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then you gave it back to Prosecutor
20 Sneddon, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Never discussed anything about what’s on the
23 diagram, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Never discussed it at all, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Okay. Now, in one of your police
28 interviews, you were asked if you knew the 1250
 

 
1 difference between right and wrong, remember.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you said you learned the difference
4 between right and wrong from your mom, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that was the truth, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Your mom told you never to lie,
9 right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did she tell you that before the J.C. Penney
12 deposition.
13 A. She told us that our whole life.
14 Q. Whole life.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. You actually told the police that you
17 think lying is a sin, right.
18 A. Yes, I think so.
19 Q. Do you remember if you did that.
20 A. Not really.
21 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if
22 I show you the transcript.
23 A. Sure.
24 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Actually, he testified that, yes,
26 he told the police that.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, I thought -- I didn’t --
28 THE COURT: Then you went on to his memory. 1251
 

 
1 So, denied.
2 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
3 THE COURT: Move along.
4 MR. MESEREAU: All right.
5 Q. You know you’re not supposed to lie under
6 oath, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Has anyone discussed that with you
9 before.
10 A. My whole family.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. The D.A.
13 Q. They have all told you, “Don’t ever lie
14 under oath,” right.
15 A. Yes. They just told me to tell the truth.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you talked about driving golf
17 carts at Neverland, right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you and your brothers used to do that
20 during your visits to Neverland, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 THE COURT: Let’s take our break, Counsel.
23 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.
24 (Recess taken.)
25 --o0o--
26
27
28 1252
 

 
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 1189 through 1252
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on March 8, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 March 8, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304L
28 1253
 

 
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 TUESDAY, MARCH 8, 2005
20
21 (PAGES 1254 THROUGH 1332)
22
23
24
25
26 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
27 BY: Official Court Reporter
28 1254
 

 
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3
For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. 
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-
19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 1255
 

 
1 E X H I B I T S
2
3 FOR IN
4 DEFENDANT’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
5
6 5001 Father’s Day card and envelope 1299 1300
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 1256
 

 
1 THE COURT: Go ahead.
2 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 Q. Do you know approximately when your family --
4 THE BAILIFF: You have to turn your mike on.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, okay. Sorry. I’ll start
6 again.
7 Q. Do you know approximately when your family
8 left Neverland and never came back.
9 A. No.
10 Q. It was in the spring of 2003, wasn’t it.
11 A. I don’t know.
12 Q. Well, it was -- let me try and see if we can
13 get to that place. You went to Miami in February of
14 2003, right.
15 A. I don’t remember. I just know when we
16 finally left, we had enough time to go back to
17 school.
18 Q. Okay. And when did school start.
19 A. September.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. September.
22 Q. Do you think you were at Neverland in June
23 2003.
24 A. I don’t know.
25 Q. Do you think you were there in April of
26 2003.
27 A. I don’t know.
28 Q. Okay. Have you ever discussed with your mom 1257
 

 
1 when you left Neverland and never came back.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Do you think you were at Neverland in
4 August of 2003.
5 A. I don’t know.
6 Q. Were you there right before you started
7 school.
8 A. No.
9 Q. You actually left many months before you
10 started school, didn’t you.
11 A. No. We were in school.
12 Q. You were in school when you left Neverland,
13 never to come back.
14 A. No. No. I didn’t understand your question.
15 Q. Okay. Let me try and not confuse you.
16 You come back from Miami, right.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And you go to Neverland, right. And at some
19 point you left Neverland, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you’re back from Miami, you stay at
22 Neverland, and then you leave. Where do you go when
23 you leave.
24 A. Back to Jay’s house.
25 Q. Okay. That’s Jay Jackson, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And is that when you had the interviews at
28 Jay Jackson’s house. 1258
 

 
1 A. When we left the last time.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. We never had an interview.
4 Q. Never had an interview at Jay Jackson’s
5 house.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Did you ever have an interview with
8 three social workers at Jay Jackson’s house.
9 A. Yes, but that was during this whole thing at
10 Neverland.
11 Q. Okay. I’m just trying to find out
12 approximately when -- excuse me.
13 Yesterday you told the jury that at one
14 point you left Neverland for the last time, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you never came back again, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that was before you went to see Attorney
19 Larry Feldman, wasn’t it.
20 A. Before we left Neverland.
21 Q. No. You left Neverland for the last time
22 before you first met Attorney Larry Feldman, right.
23 A. I don’t understand the question.
24 Q. Okay. At some point you met Attorney Larry
25 Feldman, right.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And you went to see Attorney Larry Feldman
28 with your mom, right. 1259
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that was after you had left Neverland
3 for the last time, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And at some point, Larry Feldman sent you to
6 a psychologist named Katz, right.
7 A. I didn’t know -- I didn’t know he sent us.
8 Q. Okay. Well, you went to see a psychologist
9 named Stanley Katz, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you saw him after you first met Attorney
12 Larry Feldman, right.
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. And you met Attorney Larry Feldman after you
15 met Attorney William Dickerman, right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And this all happened in the spring of 2003,
18 didn’t it.
19 A. I don’t -- I don’t remember.
20 Q. You don’t know. You were never at Neverland
21 in the summer of 2003, were you.
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Pardon me.
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And you discussed many times with the Santa
26 Barbara Sheriffs the fact that you left Neverland in
27 the spring of 2003 and never came back, right.
28 A. Wait. 1260
 

 
1 Q. Sure.
2 A. I was there in 2003.
3 Q. No, no. You were there in 2003, but you
4 left in the spring, didn’t you.
5 A. I don’t remember when I left.
6 Q. Okay. Have you ever discussed with the
7 sheriffs when you left.
8 A. I don’t remember.
9 Q. Okay. Do you know if you were there in July
10 of 2003.
11 A. Don’t remember.
12 Q. Okay. You could have been.
13 A. Probably.
14 Q. Pardon me.
15 A. Probably.
16 Q. Okay. You told the jury the first night you
17 spent at Neverland, you slept where.
18 A. First out of all the trips.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. In the guest unit.
21 Q. And that was your first night, right.
22 A. Of the first time I ever went to Neverland.
23 Q. Okay. Now, the first time you went to
24 Neverland, do you recall having dinner with Michael
25 Jackson in the main dining room.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And who was there for that dinner.
28 A. My mom -- wait. I know it was my dad, my 1261
 

 
1 brother, me, my sister, Michael. I think my mom was
2 there also.
3 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: You don’t
4 recall seeing Psychologist Sanely Katz in May of
5 2003, right.
6 A. I don’t -- I don’t know the dates.
7 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if
8 I just show you his testimony. Would that help you.
9 A. His.
10 Q. If I showed you what Psychologist Stanley
11 Katz told the grand jury.
12 A. Sure. But I don’t know the dates.
13 Q. Okay. If I showed you what he said, would
14 that remind you.
15 A. I never knew the dates.
16 Q. Okay. Okay. So even if you saw it, it
17 wouldn’t --
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- wouldn’t jog your memory.
20 Okay. Okay. And if I told you you saw
21 Stanley Katz again in June of 2003, that wouldn’t
22 jog your memory, would it.
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. And if I told you when you first
25 saw Attorney Larry Feldman, that wouldn’t jog your
26 memory, would it.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Okay. But you never went back after you met 1262
 

 
1 Psychologist Katz, right.
2 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Your Honor. Vague.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
5 Q. Do you know if you ever returned to
6 Neverland after you first met Psychologist Stanley
7 Katz.
8 A. We never returned after we met Stanley Katz.
9 Q. Okay. And would it be true -- excuse me.
10 It is true that you never returned to Neverland
11 after you met Attorney Larry Feldman, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you first spoke to the Santa Barbara
14 Sheriffs after you met Stanley Katz, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you first went to the Santa Barbara
17 Sheriffs after you met Attorney Larry Feldman,
18 right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is there anything I could show you that
21 would remind you --
22 A. I never knew the dates.
23 Q. Okay -- - of when you met Attorney Feldman.
24 Don’t know.
25 A. Never knew.
26 Q. All right. Okay. Do you have any idea what
27 month it was when you last went to Neverland.
28 A. No. 1263
 

 
1 Q. Okay. All right. But you never were there
2 in August of 2003, were you.
3 A. I don’t remember the dates.
4 Q. You don’t know, okay.
5 Now, you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs
6 about the locks in Michael Jackson’s home, did you
7 not.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said his bedroom has double doors,
10 right.
11 A. Yes. When you first enter the room.
12 Q. And you said there are several locks, right.
13 A. There’s seven locks.
14 Q. Seven locks.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Including a combination lock, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How did you know there were seven locks.
19 A. I don’t know. I just remember looking at
20 them.
21 Q. Did you know the combination to that
22 combination lock.
23 A. Do you mean the digit key pad.
24 Q. Well, you told the police there’s a
25 combination lock, didn’t you.
26 A. I said there was a key pad.
27 Q. Okay. Was that the code you were talking
28 about. 1264
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. And did that code unlock the
3 seven locks.
4 A. No, it only unlocked one lock. The other
5 six locks were unlocked manually.
6 Q. Were what.
7 A. Were unlocked by hand.
8 Q. Okay. Have you ever unlocked any of those
9 several locks.
10 A. I really don’t remember.
11 Q. You don’t remember at all.
12 A. No.
13 Q. You were caught trying to unlock those locks
14 one time, weren’t you.
15 A. When.
16 Q. At Neverland.
17 A. I don’t remember that.
18 Q. Do you recall anyone from security ever
19 catching you trying to open those locks.
20 A. From the outside.
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. You -- it’s impossible to open them from the
23 outside.
24 Q. Did you ever try to do it.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Were you ever caught by any security person
27 trying to open those locks.
28 A. No. 1265
 

 
1 Q. Don’t recall that at all.
2 A. If -- if I ever went to the door and punched
3 in the -- the key code, if it didn’t open, I just
4 left. I never tried to force it open.
5 Q. So, you’re telling the jury that you did go,
6 on at least one occasion --
7 A. No, I’m saying if that ever happened.
8 Q. If it ever happened.
9 A. If those two doors were locked.
10 Q. Right. If they were locked and you didn’t
11 know the code, you couldn’t get in, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And are you saying you tried a code one time
14 that didn’t work.
15 A. No, I’m just saying.
16 Q. Just saying what.
17 A. If the door was locked and you punch in the
18 key code, there’s no other way you could possibly
19 get in.
20 Q. All right. Because you tried it and it
21 didn’t work one time, right.
22 A. I never said I did.
23 Q. Did you.
24 A. I’m just saying if I tried, that would
25 happen.
26 Q. Did you ever try that.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Never once. 1266
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. And never were caught by anyone trying to
3 use the wrong code.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Do you know if your brother was ever
6 caught trying to use the wrong code to get in.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Now, you told the sheriffs that the
9 code was either 1960 or 1849, right.
10 A. It was 1960 and 1849.
11 Q. How did you know that.
12 A. Because 1849 was the master code. And 1960,
13 1960 got you into Michael’s room.
14 Q. Okay. You told the sheriffs that 1849 is a
15 general combination for Neverland, right.
16 A. Yes. It’s the master code.
17 Q. And 1960 is a combination for Michael’s
18 bedroom, right.
19 A. Yes. It’s the code for Michael’s bedroom.
20 Q. Which one are you telling the jury the
21 security guard gave you.
22 A. 1849.
23 Q. Do you know why the security guard gave it
24 to you and not Michael.
25 A. We never really asked Michael for that. He
26 just showed us one day.
27 Q. The security guard did.
28 A. Yes. 1267
 

 
1 Q. And you remember the codes to this day,
2 right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How many times do you think you’ve used
5 those codes.
6 A. A lot of times.
7 Q. How many times; do you think.
8 A. Probably over a hundred.
9 Q. Over a hundred times you’ve been to Michael
10 Jackson’s bedroom.
11 A. No, it gets you in everywhere.
12 Q. So you’ve probably used these codes to see
13 every room in Neverland, right.
14 A. No, I just -- I just knew the codes.
15 Q. Huh.
16 A. I memorized them.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. So I won’t get locked out.
19 Q. But you’ve used them about a hundred times
20 you said, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You’ve been into every single room at
23 Neverland, haven’t you.
24 A. At one point, yes.
25 Q. You went in with your brothers, right. Or,
26 excuse me, your brother, right.
27 A. In every room.
28 Q. Yes. 1268
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you go to every room by yourself.
3 A. No, I was either with -- I was with someone.
4 Q. Well, you weren’t always with Michael,
5 right.
6 A. I was probably in the toy room with Prince
7 and Paris and Grace.
8 Q. Okay. Did you let them into the room.
9 A. What.
10 Q. Did you use the code and let them into the
11 room.
12 A. No. Grace knew the code.
13 Q. I’m asking you if you remember how many
14 times you think you’ve used these codes --
15 A. A lot of times.
16 Q. -- to get into the rooms at Neverland. You
17 said about 100, right.
18 A. No, I’m guessing. I’m just saying I used
19 them a lot of times.
20 Q. Why did you pick the number 100.
21 A. I don’t know. I’m just trying to show that
22 I used them a lot of times.
23 Q. All right. And you used them many times
24 when Michael Jackson wasn’t even at Neverland,
25 right.
26 A. He was there. It got you into the house.
27 It got you into his bedroom. Got you into the front
28 door. 1269
 

 
1 Q. But you’ve used those codes many times when
2 Michael Jackson wasn’t even at Neverland, right.
3 A. When.
4 Q. I’m asking you.
5 A. I never used them. What did you say.
6 Q. No, let me rephrase it.
7 You personally, Star Arvizo, have used those
8 codes to get into rooms at Neverland when Michael
9 Jackson wasn’t even there, right.
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. You’re saying --
12 A. We barely learned those codes after the
13 Miami trip. I never knew them before.
14 Q. Do you recall ever being caught in the wine
15 cellar --
16 A. The wine cellar doesn’t have a combination
17 lock.
18 Q. Do you recall ever being caught in the wine
19 cellar drinking wine when Michael Jackson wasn’t
20 present.
21 A. Never.
22 Q. Never happened.
23 A. It -- it’s always locked, and it always --
24 it -- to unlock it you need a key. There’s no
25 combination to get in there.
26 Q. Let me repeat my question.
27 Do you recall ever being caught in the wine
28 cellar at Neverland with Gavin drinking wine when 1270
 

 
1 Michael Jackson wasn’t even there.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you saying that never happened.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you ever recall being caught at any other
6 location in Neverland drinking wine when Michael
7 Jackson wasn’t there.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. That never happened.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Now, you just told the jury
12 voluntarily where the key is to get in the wine
13 cellar, right.
14 A. No, I said that the door, the wine cellar
15 needed a key to get in there.
16 Q. And you knew where the key was, correct.
17 A. I knew it was in the lounge.
18 Q. You knew where it was hanging in the lounge,
19 right.
20 A. Not exactly. I didn’t know where it was
21 hanging. I just knew it was in the lounge.
22 Q. Well, please describe the lounge for the
23 jury.
24 A. It has a closet, a couch, a rest room with a
25 shower. It was pretty small.
26 Q. You’ve been in the lounge many times,
27 haven’t you.
28 A. No. 1271
 

 
1 Q. How many times have you been in the lounge.
2 A. Once to put on a cooking shirt.
3 Q. You’ve been in the lounge once to put on a
4 cooking shirt.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that’s the lounge that’s right next --
7 excuse me, that’s right next to the wine cellar,
8 correct.
9 A. No. The wine cellar’s in the arcade,
10 under -- downstairs.
11 Q. How do you get into the wine cellar.
12 A. You push a jukebox out of the stairs, and
13 you go downstairs.
14 Q. And when you go downstairs, what do you see.
15 A. It’s like a bomb shelter thing, almost.
16 There’s sleeping bags, there’s pillows. There’s
17 like canned sausages and a bunch of, like, little
18 Michael Jackson gold energy drinks. And you enter
19 into another small room which has a bunch of wine
20 and a bunch of alcohol in there.
21 Q. And to get into that room with the wine,
22 what do you have to do.
23 A. Need someone with a key.
24 Q. And where do you find the key.
25 A. I don’t know. I just knew it was in the
26 lounge, and Jesus had one, and that’s all I knew.
27 Q. Okay. Now, how many times have you been
28 down in the wine cellar. 1272
 

 
1 A. Twice.
2 Q. So when you described the lounge in detail,
3 you weren’t talking about the wine cellar, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You just described the little room right
6 next to the wine cellar, right.
7 A. No, I described a room that’s in the main
8 house. The wine cellar’s in the arcade.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Away from the house.
11 Q. When you go into the wine cellar, you go
12 downstairs, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What does that stairs look like.
15 A. It’s wooden, and they go down. And they
16 have steps.
17 Q. And you go down the steps and what’s the
18 first thing you see.
19 A. A wall.
20 Q. Pardon me.
21 A. A wall.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And then you look to your right and there’s
24 a door.
25 Q. Okay. And what does the door look like.
26 A. It’s wooden. And it looks like an
27 old-fashioned door.
28 Q. Okay. And if you’re facing the door and you 1273
 

 
1 look to your left, what do you see.
2 A. A wall.
3 Q. Okay. And if you’re facing the door and you
4 look to your right, what do you see.
5 A. The stairs leading up to the arcade.
6 Q. Is there any room close to the wine cellar.
7 A. No except a little room upstairs in the
8 arcade that had a bunch of books in it.
9 Q. Okay. And to get into that wine cellar,
10 there’s a key, correct.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the key was hanging in one location,
13 correct.
14 A. I said I didn’t know where the key was.
15 Q. But you really did know where it was, didn’t
16 you.
17 A. Not really.
18 Q. Not really.
19 A. No.
20 Q. But you got the key one time yourself,
21 didn’t you.
22 A. I’ve never gotten the key myself.
23 Q. You asked for the key, didn’t you.
24 A. What.
25 Q. You asked for the key to the wine cellar at
26 one point, didn’t you.
27 A. Never. Never.
28 Q. You knew where the key was hanging -- 1274
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- because you were watched taking that key
3 at one point, weren’t you.
4 A. I never took the key at one point.
5 Q. Okay. All right. So how many times have
6 you been in the wine cellar, then.
7 A. Twice.
8 Q. All right. And you learned this description
9 of the wine cellar by just being there twice,
10 correct.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you ever caught drinking wine in the
13 guest quarters.
14 A. Never.
15 Q. Never once.
16 A. Never.
17 Q. Never touched it at the guest quarters,
18 right.
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Okay. You gave a description of Michael’s
21 bedroom to the jury yesterday, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what did you tell the jury you’d find on
24 the first floor.
25 A. The first floor.
26 Q. Yes. The first floor of Michael’s bedroom,
27 yes.
28 A. The room to the right or to the left. 1275
 

 
1 Q. Let’s take the room to the left. What do
2 you see in the room to the left.
3 A. All the way to the left.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. There’s like -- there’s a counter with a
6 bunch of perfumes and colognes. There’s a mirror.
7 There’s another big mirror behind it. There’s
8 speakers. There’s a bunch of electric razors in a
9 drawer. There’s a big bathtub, Jacuzzi-type thing.
10 There used to be a reclining chair there. It
11 wasn’t -- you couldn’t -- it was -- it was like a
12 square cushion, and there was a cushioned chair, and
13 there’s a dresser. There’s a door with a small --
14 with a toilet in there. There’s glass doors all the
15 way to the end. There’s a big safe in there. What
16 else. There’s a -- yeah.
17 Q. And how about the room to the right.
18 A. All the way to the right, there’s another
19 counter with a bunch of stuff on it. There’s a
20 poster of Harry Potter and his two friends. There’s
21 a rest room all the way, if you keep walking down,
22 with a shower. There’s a closet to your left with a
23 bunch of clothes and a bunch of souvenirs from other
24 movies.
25 There’s -- when you first walk in, there’s a
26 closet with a bunch of pajamas. And if you go to
27 your left, there’s the stairs going up.
28 What else is there. There’s a -- that’s it. 1276
 

 
1 Q. You and your brother were caught in that
2 room when Michael Jackson wasn’t even at Neverland,
3 weren’t you.
4 A. To sleep, yeah.
5 Q. You and your brother used to go into that
6 room when Michael wasn’t even at Neverland, right.
7 A. Yes, Michael opened his room up to us so we
8 could sleep there while he was gone.
9 Q. You were actually asked to leave that room
10 when you were caught during a time when Michael
11 wasn’t even at Neverland, right.
12 A. No.
13 Q. And you and your brother rummaged through
14 every room in that bedroom area, correct.
15 A. No.
16 Q. You went snooping around the entire bedroom
17 area when Michael wasn’t even there, correct.
18 A. No.
19 Q. You went into that closet when Michael
20 wasn’t even there, correct.
21 A. No.
22 Q. How do you know there are pajamas in the
23 closet.
24 A. Because Michael showed us.
25 Q. So Michael was showing you every little bit
26 of the bedroom.
27 A. No, he just showed us where the pajamas
28 were. 1277
 

 
1 Q. And you were never caught in there and asked
2 to leave; is that what you’re saying.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Now, referring to Exhibit 86 --
5 May I approach the witness, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
8 Q. Star, I’m showing you a photograph that you
9 identified yesterday. The number is 86. Do you see
10 that.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that’s a briefcase with some girlie
13 magazines, right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you told the jury yesterday, they’re the
16 magazines you saw at Neverland, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And before you testified about these
19 magazines --
20 May I show the jury this, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
23 Shall I just hand it to them.
24 THE COURT: If that’s what you would like.
25 MR. SANGER: Tom, do you want to put it up
26 on the screen.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
28 MR. SANGER: I’ve turned this on. 1278
 

 
1 THE BAILIFF: It would be “Input 4.”
2 THE COURT: It would be “4”.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, do you see that
4 briefcase, Star.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what you’re looking at is Exhibit 86,
7 right.
8 A. I don’t see the number.
9 Q. Okay. Just -- what you’re looking at is
10 a -- appears to be a black briefcase with some
11 girlie magazines, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the first one says “Barely Legal” on it;
14 do you see that.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it appears to be a blonde woman lifting
17 up her shirt, correct.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it appears to be a blonde woman who’s
20 exposing her breasts, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And she appears to be wearing a dark pair of
23 shorts, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Before you testified yesterday you looked at
26 that photograph with Prosecutor Sneddon, correct.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. You told Prosecutor Sneddon that those are 1279
 

 
1 the magazines you had seen at Neverland, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You told Prosecutor Sneddon that Michael
4 Jackson had showed you those magazines, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Michael Jackson never showed you that
7 magazine, “Barely Legal,” did he.
8 A. What.
9 Q. Michael Jackson never showed you that
10 magazine, “Barely Legal,” did he.
11 A. He did show us.
12 Q. He did.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Well, Star, did you look at the date of the
15 magazine. It’s August of 2003, is it not.
16 A. Well, I never said that was exactly that
17 one.
18 Q. Well, your family had left Neverland many
19 months before, never to return, correct.
20 A. That -- I’m telling you that that wasn’t
21 exactly the one he showed us.
22 Q. That’s not what you said yesterday, and it’s
23 not what you said today, right.
24 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, that’s
25 argumentative.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you told the jury
28 yesterday that Michael Jackson showed you the 1280
 

 
1 magazine “Barely Legal,” you were not telling the
2 truth, right.
3 A. Um, I said that he did show us Barely Legal.
4 I didn’t say that he showed us that exact one. He
5 showed us those magazines.
6 Q. You told the jury yesterday that Michael
7 showed you the particular magazine depicted in the
8 photograph, didn’t you.
9 A. No. I said that he showed us those type of
10 magazines.
11 Q. You’re saying it now because you just found
12 out what the date is, right.
13 A. I never said those were exactly the ones.
14 Q. Okay. Okay. Did you discuss this issue
15 with Prosecutor Sneddon this morning.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you ever discussed this issue with any
18 prosecutor.
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Ever discussed this issue with any Santa
21 Barbara Sheriff’s officer.
22 A. Never.
23 Q. Okay. You testified yesterday to the jury
24 that you found that briefcase cracked open, correct.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. In fact, you and your brother were caught
27 trying to get into that briefcase, weren’t you.
28 A. No. 1281
 

 
1 Q. You deny that anyone at Neverland ever
2 caught you trying to get into the briefcase.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are there any locks at Neverland other than
5 the ones you described.
6 A. Any other.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. There’s a lot more locks.
9 Q. Please tell the jury where the other locks
10 are.
11 A. Almost on every door.
12 Q. And how do you get into those locks.
13 A. On every single door.
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Do you want me to explain every lock.
16 Q. Sure, the ones you know about. Sure.
17 A. Mostly all locked from the inside, not -- I
18 don’t know what you’re trying to ask me.
19 Q. Well, I’d like you to tell the jury what you
20 know about each lock at Neverland.
21 A. There’s like hundreds of locks.
22 Q. Okay. Let’s take ten of them.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Wherever they may be. Just tell the jury
25 what you know about those ten locks and where they
26 are.
27 A. They all lock from the inside.
28 Q. And how do you unlock them. 1282
 

 
1 A. From the inside.
2 Q. Is there any other way to unlock them.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you unlocked any of those locks, ever.
5 A. From the inside.
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Probably coming out of the rest room.
8 Q. Which lock are you talking about.
9 A. The rest room lock.
10 Q. What other locks have you unlocked at
11 Neverland.
12 A. Um -- um -- rest room lock, door lock. What
13 else. I can’t really remember every lock I
14 unlocked.
15 Q. Do you remember testifying in front of the
16 Santa Barbara grand jury.
17 A. A little, yes.
18 Q. Do you remember the prosecutor handed you a
19 girlie magazine to look at.
20 A. When.
21 Q. When you were in front of the Santa Barbara
22 grand jury.
23 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
24 object; assumes facts not in evidence.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Were you ever asked to
27 look at a girlie magazine when you testified in
28 front of the Santa Barbara grand jury. 1283
 

 
1 A. I was never handed a girlie magazine.
2 Q. Has Mr. Sneddon ever shown you a girlie
3 magazine during your interviews.
4 A. No, except on the -- on the photo that you
5 just showed.
6 Q. Okay. And when was that.
7 A. When.
8 Q. When was that.
9 A. Just a moment ago.
10 Q. Okay. Just a moment ago.
11 A. Yes. I’m talking about the picture you just
12 showed a moment ago.
13 Q. Yes. Yes. He showed you that picture,
14 right.
15 A. Yes. In the grand jury.
16 Q. And did you testify in the grand jury that
17 you saw these magazines.
18 A. No, I said I saw those types of magazines.
19 Q. Okay. Mr. Arvizo --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- you told Mr. Sneddon, in no uncertain
22 terms, that those were the magazines you had seen,
23 didn’t you.
24 A. I said those -- those are the type of
25 magazines we saw.
26 Q. Okay. Had you ever seen any girlie
27 magazines in your life before you say Michael
28 Jackson showed them to you. 1284
 

 
1 A. Hmm, no.
2 Q. Never.
3 A. Well, I was only like 11, 12.
4 Q. Weren’t you caught at Neverland looking in
5 girlie magazines.
6 A. I said no.
7 Q. No one ever caught you and your brother
8 looking at girlie magazines at Neverland.
9 A. Never.
10 Q. Okay. Okay. And your testimony is until
11 you got to Neverland, you and your brother had never
12 looked at a girlie magazine at any time; is that
13 right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Before you got to Neverland, had you
16 ever used a computer.
17 A. Yes. In school.
18 Q. Had you ever used one at home.
19 A. No.
20 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m a little late
21 on the trigger on this one, but I want to object to
22 that as vague and have it stricken in terms of what
23 point in time we’re talking about.
24 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: All right.
26 MR. SNEDDON: Could the question and the
27 answer be stricken, please.
28 THE COURT: Denied. 1285
 

 
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Before your first visit to
2 Neverland, had you ever used a computer.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you know anything about computers before
5 you made your first visit to Neverland.
6 A. I knew I could punch in some keys and I
7 could spell a word.
8 Q. And where had you learned to do that.
9 A. At school, at word-processing class.
10 Q. Before you were first interviewed by the
11 Santa Barbara Sheriffs, did you know anything about
12 computers.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what did you know about computers at
15 that point.
16 A. How to type and how to surf the net.
17 Q. You knew how to surf the net before you
18 first went to Neverland, didn’t you.
19 A. I didn’t even know we had Internet. Well, I
20 might have, but never really --
21 Q. You say you might have.
22 A. Yeah, I might have, but I never really saw
23 the point of going there.
24 Q. When you were first interviewed by the Santa
25 Barbara Sheriffs, you told them about what you’ve
26 claimed Michael Jackson and Frank did with a
27 computer, right.
28 A. Yes. 1286
 

 
1 Q. And you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs that
2 they found a site like the AOL, right.
3 A. Like the AOL.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Well, I was kind of nervous -- I was kind of
6 nervous in that interview. I might have dropped off
7 on half of my sentence.
8 Q. You were kind of nervous in the interview
9 and you might have dropped off like half of your
10 sentence.
11 A. Yes. Whenever -- well, that’s how I speak.
12 Whenever I’m nervous, I cut off part of my sentence.
13 Or -- I don’t know, I’m just -- that’s how I am.
14 Q. Has anyone showed you a record of your
15 interview before you testified today.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who.
18 A. D.A.’s Office.
19 Q. Excuse me.
20 A. The D.A.’s Office.
21 Q. Who in the D.A.’s Office showed you a
22 transcript of your interview before you testified
23 today.
24 A. What interview. The Santa Barbara.
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. It was mailed to me.
27 Q. And do you know who mailed it to you.
28 A. No. 1287
 

 
1 Q. Do you know when you received it.
2 A. About a month ago.
3 Q. Did you read it.
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn’t read it at all.
6 A. Well, I did read it towards the end.
7 Q. Did you read the whole thing.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you then discuss that transcript with
10 anybody.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Never.
13 A. No. Tom told us not to.
14 Q. Okay. Well, I haven’t showed you that
15 portion of the transcript yet today, right.
16 A. What.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I object as vague.
18 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it. I’ll
19 rephrase.
20 Q. The part of the transcript where you told
21 the sheriffs about AOL - okay. --
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. -- when did you last see that page.
24 A. I don’t even remember seeing it.
25 Q. You never saw it.
26 A. No, I don’t remember seeing it, but it was
27 probably in there.
28 Q. Okay. Well, I’ll represent to you that your 1288
 

 
1 sentence does sort of break off.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. A lot of my sentences do.
5 Q. How did you know that sentence broke off.
6 A. Because when I’m nervous, that’s how I talk.
7 Q. Pardon me.
8 A. When I’m nervous, that’s how I talk.
9 Q. You clearly looked at that before you
10 testified today, didn’t you.
11 A. No. I didn’t look at those papers.
12 Q. Never looked at them once.
13 A. No. Probably looked at them when I got up
14 here, when -- no, not right here, but when I came up
15 to Santa Barbara.
16 Q. When you came up to Santa Barbara, you’re
17 saying you looked at your transcript of your police
18 interview, right.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. I’m sorry, I’m not understanding what
21 you’re saying. And if I’m not being clear, just
22 tell me. Okay.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. There was a point in your sheriff’s
25 interview where you talked about Frank and Michael
26 Jackson showing you a computer, right.
27 A. Yes. It was the -- that was the same
28 computer my brother had. 1289
 

 
1 Q. And is that a computer that Michael Jackson
2 gave to your brother.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know when he gave it to him.
5 A. During the first visit.
6 Q. Okay. And you told the Santa Barbara
7 Sheriffs, like you told the jury yesterday, that
8 during that first visit, Michael Jackson and Frank
9 showed you the computer, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You told the sheriffs they looked at a site
12 like AOL, correct.
13 A. I don’t -- I don’t know what I meant by
14 saying that.
15 Q. But you said it.
16 A. I know. I probably cut off the sentence.
17 Q. You’re saying that you told the sheriffs it
18 was a site like AOL, but you don’t know what AOL
19 means.
20 A. I probably meant we probably went on AOL and
21 we found a site there.
22 Q. Do you know what “AOL” means.
23 A. It’s an Internet company.
24 Q. When you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs you
25 went on a site --
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. -- like AOL, you knew how to use the
28 Internet, right. 1290
 

 
1 A. No. I don’t remember saying that.
2 Q. When you were first interviewed by the Santa
3 Barbara Sheriffs --
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. First interview, okay.
6 A. Right.
7 Q. You told them Michael Jackson and Frank
8 showed you and your brother a site on the computer,
9 right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You told them it was a site like AOL, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You knew what AOL was when you mentioned
14 that, didn’t you.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Why did you just tell the jury you didn’t
17 know.
18 A. I knew it after my brother was -- was, I
19 don’t know, I don’t know, was connected or -- I
20 don’t know the word, but when he was -- because when
21 Michael gave him the laptop, he had someone call him
22 and set up an AOL account for my brother for his
23 laptop.
24 Q. Okay. You and your brother had looked at
25 Internet sites before you ever visited Neverland,
26 hadn’t you.
27 A. No. I had -- I was -- never really used the
28 Internet. 1291
 

 
1 Q. Your brother had, as far as you know, right.
2 A. No. I never -- never really monitored my
3 brother.
4 Q. Pardon me.
5 A. I never really monitored my brother.
6 Q. When Michael Jackson gave your brother a
7 computer --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- you and your brother already knew how to
10 use it, correct.
11 A. No. He called someone to hook it up. Well,
12 talked to my brother on the phone of how to hook it
13 up.
14 Q. You told the police in your first interview
15 you looked at www dot p-u-s-s-y dot com.
16 A. No, I was making an example that I was
17 trying to say, that wasn’t the exact site. I’m just
18 saying, I was just making an example.
19 Q. Okay. You also told the police you might
20 have looked at www dot t-e-e-n p-u-s-s-y dot com,
21 right.
22 A. No. I never said that.
23 Q. You never said that to the sheriffs.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
26 you their report.
27 A. Sure.
28 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor. 1292
 

 
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
3 look at that page.
4 A. Yes, but --
5 Q. “But” what.
6 A. I never said that. That’s just a paragraph
7 that somebody wrote.
8 Q. So you never said that to the Santa Barbara
9 Sheriffs --
10 A. I might have, but I don’t remember saying
11 it.
12 Q. Well, you are saying that if it appears in a
13 report, it’s wrong.
14 A. Well, I’m saying I never remember saying it.
15 Q. Okay. Star, you and your brother were
16 caught at Neverland looking at computer sites when
17 Michael wasn’t even there, right.
18 A. There’s no computers at Neverland.
19 Q. Your brother had one.
20 A. At the beginning. But then it broke, and
21 then we never had it again. And the only other
22 computer there was Frank’s computer, and Frank took
23 it everywhere he went.
24 Q. Okay. So you never were caught by
25 anybody --
26 A. No.
27 Q. -- looking at adult material sites on a
28 computer. 1293
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Is that correct.
3 A. There’s no computers in Neverland.
4 Q. Okay. Now, did you tell the sheriffs that
5 Michael Jackson kept your family away from clocks.
6 A. Well, we never knew the time.
7 Q. Well, did you tell the Santa Barbara
8 Sheriffs that, “Michael Jackson would never let us
9 look at clocks,” or words to that effect.
10 A. Words -- could I see it.
11 Q. I’m just asking you.
12 A. No. Well, yes. Probably said it to an
13 extent like that.
14 Q. Well, just tell the jury, if you would, how
15 you remember saying it.
16 A. I just remember saying that -- I don’t
17 remember how exactly how I said it.
18 Q. Well, you said words to the effect, “Michael
19 Jackson kept my family away from clocks and time,”
20 right.
21 A. Were those my exact words.
22 Q. No, I’m saying, words to that effect. Do
23 you remember exactly how you said it to the sheriff.
24 A. No. I don’t know exactly.
25 Q. Do you remember roughly how you said it to
26 the sheriffs.
27 A. Not really.
28 Q. Did you say anything like that to the 1294
 

 
1 sheriffs.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please tell the jury what you told the
4 sheriffs.
5 A. I’m going to be guessing, because I don’t
6 know my exact words.
7 Q. Okay. I’m not asking for your exact words.
8 I’m just asking you for generally what you said.
9 A. They kept us away from the clocks. We
10 didn’t know the exact time or the date or nothing.
11 Q. Would you agree that overlooking Neverland
12 is a huge clock.
13 A. Yes. It’s a flower clock.
14 Q. Yes. And to the right of that big flower
15 clock is another clock, correct.
16 A. Probably.
17 Q. There are clocks all over Neverland,
18 correct.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you and your brothers used to run all
21 around Neverland, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You wanted the sheriffs to think that you
24 and your family were imprisoned and kept away from
25 clocks.
26 A. No.
27 Q. That’s why you told them that lie, right.
28 A. No. 1295
 

 
1 Q. If there are clocks all over Neverland, if
2 there’s a big flower clock on a hill overlooking
3 Neverland, and if you and your brothers were running
4 freely around Neverland, why did you tell the Santa
5 Barbara Sheriffs “We were kept away from clocks and
6 time”.
7 A. Because they were wrong and we were kept
8 away from them. We weren’t able to know the time.
9 Q. Your mother told you to say that, didn’t
10 she.
11 A. No.
12 Q. It was a lie, wasn’t it.
13 A. No.
14 Q. It defies common sense, doesn’t it.
15 A. Can you explain that.
16 Q. You don’t know what that means.
17 A. I know what common sense is.
18 Q. Everywhere you go at Neverland, you can see
19 clocks, right.
20 A. Not everywhere.
21 Q. Most places, right.
22 A. Yes, most places.
23 Q. And you and your brother were up on a
24 hill --
25 A. They weren’t always correct. Yeah, they had
26 clocks there, but they weren’t always correct.
27 Q. Well, if you didn’t know what time it was,
28 how do you know they weren’t correct. 1296
 

 
1 A. Because the clocks were -- one clock was
2 saying five o’clock and another clock was saying
3 nine o’clock. That’s how I knew they were wrong.
4 Q. Star, you knew what time it was at
5 Neverland, didn’t you.
6 A. No.
7 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
8 Honor.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever send letters
11 or cards to Michael Jackson.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know when you did that.
14 A. When we first met Michael.
15 Q. And approximately when was that again.
16 A. When I was 10, 11.
17 Q. And do you know approximately when you first
18 met Michael.
19 A. While my brother was having cancer.
20 Q. Was that probably the fall of 2000.
21 A. I don’t know the date.
22 Q. Was it 2001.
23 A. I don’t know the date.
24 Q. Was it 2002.
25 A. I just know it was between when my brother
26 was having cancer.
27 Q. Did your mother help you write your letters
28 to Michael. 1297
 

 
1 A. Hmm, no.
2 Q. Did you write them yourself.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You wrote a letter to Michael, Star, where
5 you said -- you thanked him, “Because even when your
6 hearts get broken and shattered into tiny little
7 pieces, we always still love, need and care about
8 you with every tiny little piece of our hearts,”
9 right.
10 A. Are you reading that from a card.
11 Q. I’m asking you if you remember saying
12 anything like that.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Never said it.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
17 you a card --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- that you sent to Michael.
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, could I see the
24 card before counsel shows him.
25 MR. MESEREAU: Sure. My mistake.
26 MR. SNEDDON: That’s okay. My mistake; I
27 just didn’t....
28 MR. MESEREAU: May I have this marked as the 1298
 

 
1 exhibit next in order, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Your Honor. If
4 he’s going to refresh the individual’s recollection
5 first, and that --
6 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me, Your Honor, I’m
7 doing it.
8 THE COURT: He’s changed his --
9 MR. SNEDDON: I object.
10 THE COURT: He’s changed his approach.
11 MR. MESEREAU: I’m doing it.
12 THE COURT: He was going to refresh. Now
13 he’s asking if the exhibit may be marked. He can
14 have the exhibit marked.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
16 THE CLERK: It’s 5001.
17 MR. MESEREAU: 5001.
18 MR. SNEDDON: No objection that it come in.
19 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, that would be a
20 card and an envelope. Would you like them to be two
21 exhibits or can they be the same.
22 THE COURT: I think they can be the same.
23 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Thank you.
24 Q. Star, I’m going to show you a card and
25 envelope that have been marked as Exhibit 5001.
26 Okay.
27 A. I think I wrote this off another card.
28 Q. Okay. But you did write it, right. 1299
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Have you seen that before.
3 A. I haven’t seen this in a long time.
4 Q. But that’s your handwriting, isn’t it.
5 A. Yes, when I was really little. Yes.
6 Q. And how about the envelope. Have you seen
7 that envelope, the purple envelope. Have you seen
8 that before.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That’s the envelope the card came in.
11 A. I don’t remember if the envelope came with
12 this card.
13 Q. Okay. And you gave Michael Jackson your
14 phone number, right, at the bottom.
15 A. Looks like it.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Wait. I don’t remember that being my phone
18 number. But if it is, it was.
19 MR. MESEREAU: I would move this document
20 into evidence, Your Honor.
21 MR. SNEDDON: I already said no objection,
22 Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You said to Michael
25 Jackson, “My super, super, best, best friend,”
26 right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. You said, “I love you, I love you,” 1300
 

 
1 repeatedly, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you referred to Father’s Day, right.
4 A. I didn’t read the card.
5 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
6 you the envelope.
7 A. Sure.
8 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: “Happy Father’s Day.”
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yeah, you said “Happy
12 Father’s Day” on the envelope, right.
13 A. Wait. Can I see it one more time.
14 Q. Sure.
15 May I.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Okay.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You sent the card on
19 Father’s Day, correct.
20 A. Sure. I don’t remember, but, okay.
21 Q. You told Mr. Jackson, “You always heal us in
22 a very special way,” right.
23 A. I wrote that off another card.
24 Q. What other card did you write that off of.
25 A. It was a card that already had it written on
26 there.
27 Q. Where did you get that card.
28 A. Probably from a supermarket or -- 1301
 

 
1 Q. Excuse me.
2 A. Probably from a supermarket.
3 Q. Okay. So you took a card from a
4 supermarket --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- and wrote the words.
7 A. It was a card lying around. My grandmother
8 got a lot of cards from her grandchildren.
9 Q. You said, “Michael, you are special to us,”
10 right.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. “We loyally and faithfully love you more,”
13 right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. “We love you unconditionally, to infinity
16 and beyond forever,” right.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And you said, “Thank you, Michael, for being
19 our family,” right.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. “Love, your Blow Hole, Star Arvizo,” right.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. 626-452-1693, right.
24 A. I don’t even remember having that phone
25 number, but --
26 Q. The card is signed “Davellin, Gavin, Star
27 and me,” right.
28 A. “Me”. Okay. 1302
 

 
1 Q. Well, there’s other people’s writings on
2 there also, correct.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you all used to write to Michael and
5 tell him about how he had healed your family, right.
6 A. What do you mean. We never -- we probably
7 wrote to him like --
8 Q. Pardon me.
9 A. I only wrote to him, like, three times.
10 Q. Okay. But you would write to him and tell
11 him how he had healed your family, true.
12 A. I don’t remember that.
13 Q. Your mother would ask you to do that, right.
14 A. No.
15 Q. And your family often referred to Michael as
16 a father figure, right.
17 A. Um, sure.
18 Q. You did that often, right.
19 A. Refer to him as a father figure.
20 Q. Yes. You always referred to Michael as
21 being part of your family, didn’t you.
22 A. Yes. Part of our family.
23 Q. Your mother used to do that, correct.
24 A. What do you mean.
25 Q. You don’t know what I mean.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Your mother used to refer to Michael Jackson
28 as being part of your family, didn’t she. 1303
 

 
1 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
2 object as to vague as to time.
3 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
4 Q. From the time you first met Michael Jackson,
5 you used to refer to him as being part of your
6 family, didn’t you.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. From the time your mother first met Michael
9 Jackson, she used to refer to him as being part of
10 your family, right.
11 A. I can’t speak for my mom.
12 Q. You never heard her say that.
13 A. Not really.
14 Q. From the time your sister first met Michael
15 Jackson, she used to refer to him as being part of
16 the family, right.
17 A. I don’t know.
18 Q. Did you ever hear her say that.
19 A. No.
20 Q. But you started doing it yourself, correct.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you say you did it by copying a card
23 from a supermarket.
24 A. Yes, I just plugged his name in.
25 Q. Okay. So this handwriting of yours all
26 comes from a supermarket card; is that correct.
27 A. No, not from a supermarket card. I rewrote
28 the supermarket card. 1304
 

 
1 Q. Okay. So when you said to Michael, “Thank
2 you, Michael, because even when our hearts are and
3 get broken and shattered into tiny little pieces, we
4 always still love, need and care about you with
5 every tiny little piece of our hearts, because you
6 always heal us in a very special way,” did you get
7 that from a supermarket card.
8 A. I plugged some words in, I plugged his name
9 in, and that’s how I got that paragraph.
10 Q. And you recall sending it to him.
11 A. What.
12 Q. Do you recall sending it to him.
13 A. Not really.
14 Q. Do you recall giving it to him.
15 A. Not really.
16 Q. Yesterday you told the jury that when you
17 were interviewed on that rebuttal tape and your
18 family said things about Michael healing Gavin and
19 being a father, that that was something scripted,
20 correct.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But nobody scripted the words in this card,
23 did they.
24 A. No. But that was before all that happened.
25 Q. Before what happened, Star.
26 A. Before the Miami trip, and before we finally
27 left.
28 Q. So what you’re saying is before the Miami 1305
 

 
1 trip, you always, you and your family always
2 referred to Michael as “Daddy” and as someone who
3 would heal.
4 A. We never had a constant connection with
5 Michael during that time.
6 Q. Then why would you write a card like this to
7 him.
8 A. Probably when we came back from Neverland.
9 I don’t know. I was really little when I wrote that
10 card.
11 Q. Your mother asked you to write it, didn’t
12 she.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Your mother never asked you to write to
15 Michael.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Your mother -- how old were you when you
18 wrote the card; do you think.
19 A. Probably -- I don’t know. I don’t know.
20 Q. Well, how old do you think you were. Ten.
21 Nine.
22 A. I can’t guess. I don’t know.
23 Q. Well, how old are you now.
24 A. 14.
25 Q. We’re talking about a couple of years ago,
26 right.
27 A. I don’t know. I don’t want to say the wrong
28 age. 1306
 

 
1 Q. Pardon me.
2 A. I don’t want to say the wrong age.
3 Q. No, just do your best. Just estimate.
4 We’re talking about a couple of years ago, correct.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Huh.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, how long ago do you think you were
9 visiting Neverland.
10 A. Back in 2000 and 2001.
11 Q. All right. How old do you think you were in
12 2000 and 2001.
13 A. Ten.
14 Q. Are you saying that when you were ten years
15 old nobody told you what words to write on this
16 card.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You wrote it all yourself when you were ten.
19 A. No, the card helped me.
20 Q. Well, what about the words, “When we get
21 broken and shattered into tiny little pieces we
22 always still love, need and care about you with
23 every tiny little piece of our hearts, because you
24 always heal us in a very special way”. Did you make
25 those words up at the age of 10.
26 A. No, the card did.
27 Q. The card did.
28 A. Yes. The card already had them written on 1307
 

 
1 there.
2 Q. Oh, I see, so you took a card and copied it.
3 A. Yes, I told you.
4 Q. And your mother wasn’t involved in that.
5 A. No.
6 Q. And your father wasn’t involved in that.
7 A. No.
8 Q. And Gavin wasn’t involved in that.
9 A. No.
10 Q. And Davellin wasn’t involved in that, right.
11 A. No.
12 Q. You did it all yourself, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then how come you got other family members
15 writing on the same card.
16 A. Well, they probably wrote on the card after
17 I was done with it.
18 Q. Did you see them do that.
19 A. No, I just wrote on it, and I left it there.
20 Q. Are you saying they probably did that, or
21 you know they did that.
22 A. They probably did that.
23 Q. Okay. But what you’re telling the jury -
24 and correct me if I’m wrong - is long before the
25 rebuttal video, your family was referring to Michael
26 as “Daddy,” and as someone who had healed the
27 family, true.
28 MR. SNEDDON: Object, Your Honor, as 1308
 

 
1 compound.
2 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
3 I think it is compound.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Long before the rebuttal
6 film, your family was referring to Michael as a
7 father figure, right.
8 A. It was long before the Miami trip, too.
9 Q. You say long before it.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, in the year --
12 A. And --
13 Q. Pardon me.
14 A. And my brother was referring to him as a
15 father figure.
16 Q. Okay. Long before the Miami trip, correct.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And long before the Miami trip, your mother
19 was referring to him as a father figure, right.
20 A. My brother.
21 Q. Is that true.
22 A. Yes, my brother needed a father at that
23 time. He was barely coming out of his terminal
24 illness.
25 Q. And long before the Miami trip, you were
26 referring to Michael Jackson as a father figure,
27 right.
28 A. I don’t remember doing it, but okay. 1309
 

 
1 Q. Well, did you do that.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Pardon me.
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn’t do it.
6 A. No.
7 Q. What about the card.
8 A. So. That’s what -- that’s what the card had
9 on it, so I -- I rewrit it on a piece of paper
10 and -- and I plugged in his name.
11 Q. Now, “Blow Hole” was a nickname for a fish,
12 right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Your nickname was based on a fish, right.
15 A. I made it up. I was going to give it to
16 Michael. We had a rock/paper/scissors, I lost, so I
17 got stuck with that name.
18 Q. Okay. Do you remember meeting with
19 Psychologist Stanley Katz to talk about what you
20 claim Michael Jackson did to your mother. Do you
21 remember that.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You told Stanley Katz that Michael Jackson
24 gave you red wine and vodka, correct.
25 A. I don’t remember saying that.
26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
27 you his testimony.
28 A. Whose testimony. 1310
 

 
1 Q. Stanley Katz.
2 A. I never said that to him, so --
3 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
4 show you what he says you told him.
5 A. That’s what he said.
6 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if
7 I just show you what he said.
8 A. Okay, but it’s not going to help.
9 Q. It’s not going to help you.
10 A. Yeah, I remember saying red and white wine,
11 and there’s one time we got vodka, yes.
12 Q. You told Stanley Katz that you were given
13 vodka.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But yesterday you told the jury it was just
16 wine, right.
17 A. I forgot.
18 Q. You might have forgot yesterday.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. You told Stanley Katz that the first
21 time you observed your brother in bed with Michael
22 Jackson, that Michael Jackson had put his hand on
23 your brother’s crotch, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You then changed that to say he had put his
26 hand inside your brother’s pants, right.
27 A. He might have said it, but I know what I
28 said. 1311
 

 
1 Q. Excuse me. I’m sorry.
2 A. Repeat the question.
3 Q. Originally, you told Stanley Katz that
4 Michael Jackson had put his hand near your brother’s
5 crotch, right.
6 A. Near.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Is that right.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Well, you said he put his hand on his
12 crotch, correct.
13 A. In his underwears.
14 Q. And as time went on, after interview and
15 after interview, you changed that to masturbation,
16 true.
17 A. Masturbating my brother.
18 Q. Let me rephrase it.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. You told Stanley Katz that the first time
21 you saw Michael Jackson in bed with your brother,
22 the time you went up the stairs, that Michael
23 Jackson had put his hand on your brother’s crotch,
24 right.
25 A. When they were going up the stairs.
26 Q. Yes.
27 A. While they were going up the stairs.
28 Q. While you’re going up the stairs. 1312
 

 
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Let me rephrase it. Don’t answer it if
3 you’re confused. Okay.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. You told the jury yesterday you went up the
6 stairs one night, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You got into the room yourself, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said the bell went off, right.
11 A. When I first walked in through the hallway,
12 yes.
13 Q. And even though the bell went off, you kept
14 going up the stairs, right.
15 A. The bell went off while I was -- made my way
16 through the hallway.
17 Q. The bell went off when you opened the door,
18 didn’t it.
19 A. No, it stopped.
20 Q. Pardon me.
21 A. It stopped.
22 Q. It just stopped.
23 A. Yeah. It goes for a couple more minutes and
24 then it stops.
25 Q. And then what happens.
26 A. That’s it.
27 Q. It never goes on again.
28 A. No. 1313
 

 
1 Q. It goes off so Michael can hear it, correct.
2 A. If the door’s closed, you can’t hear
3 nothing.
4 Q. Can’t hear anything upstairs.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Is that what you’re saying.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. The bell goes off. You say Michael
9 doesn’t hear it, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you say that you open his door to the
12 stairway, right, and you say you go upstairs, right.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. The first one you say you describe that to
15 was Stanley Katz, correct.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You told Stanley Katz that Michael Jackson
18 had his left hand on Gavin’s crotch, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Never told him that Michael Jackson was
21 masturbating Gavin.
22 A. He wasn’t masturbating. He was just
23 feeling.
24 Q. He was just feeling him.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Do you remember yesterday you told the jury
27 he was masturbating him.
28 A. No, I said Michael was feeling my brother 1314
 

 
1 while he was masturbating.
2 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell the jury yesterday
3 that Michael was masturbating your brother.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever tell that to anybody.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Do you remember when you described
8 for Stanley Katz the second time you claim Michael
9 Jackson was observed by you in bed with your
10 brother. Do you remember that.
11 A. What.
12 Q. Do you remember telling Stanley Katz there
13 was a second time that you went up the stairs and
14 observed Michael Jackson touching your brother.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you tell Stanley Katz that Michael
17 Jackson had his hand on your brother’s crotch.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That’s really not what you told him at all,
20 is it.
21 A. What are you talking about.
22 Q. Well, you told Stanley Katz that Michael
23 Jackson was rubbing his penis against Gavin’s
24 buttocks, didn’t you.
25 A. When. The second time.
26 Q. Yes. Did you tell Stanley Katz that.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show 1315
 

 
1 you his grand jury testimony.
2 A. I know what I said, though.
3 Q. Are you denying telling Psychologist Stanley
4 Katz --
5 A. The second time.
6 Q. -- that you told him the second time you
7 observed Michael Jackson touching your brother in
8 bed, that Michael Jackson was rubbing his penis
9 against your brother’s buttocks.
10 A. No.
11 Q. You never told that to Stanley Katz.
12 A. No.
13 Q. If I showed you his testimony, would that
14 jog your memory.
15 A. No. I know what I said, though.
16 Q. Okay. You tried to tell Stanley Katz that
17 you smelled marijuana, didn’t you.
18 A. I don’t know how marijuana smells.
19 Q. Didn’t you tell Stanley Katz you smelled
20 marijuana.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
23 you that page of his testimony.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. Now, are you saying that you never
26 told Michael Jackson you wanted to be an actor.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Never told him that at all, right. 1316
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did your mother
3 ever tell Michael Jackson you wanted to be an actor.
4 A. I can’t speak for her.
5 Q. Did you ever hear her say that.
6 A. No.
7 Q. You went to dancing classes, right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what school did you go to.
10 A. I went to Mr. and Mrs. Kennedy’s Dance
11 Studio. I went to -- where else did I go. I went
12 to ballet classes, rhythm/tap, a little bit of jazz.
13 What else. That’s it.
14 Q. And you went to comedy class, right.
15 A. Sure. Yes.
16 Q. When did you go to comedy class.
17 A. In the summer. In the summer.
18 Q. What summer was that.
19 A. In between third and fourth.
20 Q. Were you trying to learn to be a comedian.
21 A. No, I just wanted to do it for fun.
22 Q. Okay. Ever tell anyone you wanted to be a
23 comedian.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. Now, you told the Santa Barbara
26 Sheriffs that Frank threatened you and your family,
27 right.
28 A. He just threatened me. 1317
 

 
1 Q. He just threatened you alone.
2 A. He probably threatened my family.
3 Q. Did he threaten you alone.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know when that was.
6 A. I don’t know the date.
7 Q. Was it when you first got to Neverland.
8 A. I don’t really remember.
9 Q. Was it after the Miami trip.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know how soon after the Miami trip.
12 A. I think it was right before the rebuttal.
13 Q. Right before the rebuttal.
14 A. I was trying to go talk to my mom.
15 Q. So this would be before, if I represent to
16 you the rebuttal was June 20th, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Excuse me, February 20th, pardon me.
19 February 20th was the rebuttal tape, right.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And you’re saying that Frank threatened you
22 right before the rebuttal tape.
23 A. While I was trying to walk to my mom’s guest
24 unit.
25 Q. Okay. But it was -- as far as you know,
26 it’s before the rebuttal tape, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Okay. And in one of your sheriffs’ 1318
 

 
1 interviews, you were asked why Frank made that
2 threat, right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you told the sheriffs, “Because he
5 already knew that what Michael did to us, and if we
6 told them the truth, he would have went to jail,”
7 right.
8 A. Can I read that.
9 Q. Yes.
10 May I approach, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
13 look at that page.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember saying that to the sheriffs.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you told them, essentially, that Frank
18 said that to you, threatened you, because he knew
19 that if you told anybody what Michael had done,
20 Michael would go to jail, right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That was right before the rebuttal tape,
23 right.
24 A. I think so, yes.
25 Q. Have you discussed the charges in this case
26 with the sheriffs.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Have they told you they’re claiming that 1319
 

 
1 molestation went on starting the 20th of June.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. February, I mean. Have they told you that.
4 A. Okay. No, they haven’t told me.
5 Q. Did you ever give them dates.
6 A. No. I knew more back then than I do now.
7 Q. You knew more back then than you do now.
8 A. Yes, it was fresh in my memory back then.
9 Q. Did someone tell you to say that.
10 A. No, I’m saying it right now, because I have
11 school, I have tests to study for, and most of that
12 stuff leave my memory, most of the details.
13 Q. That’s because you’re studying for tests in
14 school.
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. And you think if you weren’t studying for
17 tests in school, you’d know a lot more today.
18 A. It’s not just tests. It’s just learning.
19 Q. So the learning you’ve done in school has
20 interfered with your memory about this case.
21 A. No, I know -- I know -- I know everything
22 happened. I just don’t know it in detail like I did
23 in those testimonies.
24 Q. Okay. Okay. You had a lot of details
25 yesterday, didn’t you.
26 A. Well, yeah. I do remember details. But not
27 all the details.
28 Q. Okay. But you said you’ve reviewed a 1320
 

 
1 transcript of your police interview, right.
2 A. Yes. I didn’t memorize 300 pages.
3 Q. They told you to memorize it.
4 A. No, I’m just telling you I didn’t memorize
5 them. I just read through them.
6 Q. Now, where did you get 300 pages.
7 A. I’m just saying, I’m just giving you an
8 example.
9 Q. Please tell the jury how many pages you were
10 mailed to review before you testified.
11 A. I didn’t count them.
12 Q. Do you know approximately how many.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Didn’t you just say 300.
15 A. I was showing you an example.
16 Q. Okay. And when did you get these pages,
17 however many there were.
18 A. When did I get them.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. About a month ago.
21 Q. Do you know where they came from.
22 A. No.
23 Q. No idea.
24 A. No.
25 Q. They just popped up in the mail.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And when you got them, what did you do.
28 A. I didn’t read them. 1321
 

 
1 Q. Where did you put them.
2 A. Put them right near my bed.
3 Q. Never looked at them again.
4 A. No. Until -- until I almost came up here.
5 Q. So when you almost came up here, you looked
6 at those pages for the first time, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And how many of them did you look at.
9 A. How many.
10 Q. Yeah. Roughly.
11 A. I don’t know.
12 Q. Did you look at all of them.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did someone tell you to read them.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who.
17 A. Tom.
18 Q. Prosecutor Sneddon.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Told you to read all the pages, right.
21 A. Yes. Just to look through them.
22 Q. Told you to read them, to get ready for your
23 testimony in this case, right.
24 A. Yes. Just to look through them.
25 Q. And that’s how you knew your sentence to the
26 sheriffs about AOL dropped off and wasn’t completed,
27 right.
28 A. I didn’t know about that. 1322
 

 
1 Q. You didn’t know about that.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Didn’t you just testify about that.
4 A. I said I read through them.
5 Q. Read through what.
6 A. My transcripts.
7 Q. Okay. You read through them because
8 Prosecutor Sneddon wanted you to make sure that you
9 testified consistently with what you had in the
10 reports, right.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Is that what he said.
13 A. No. He just told me to thumb through them,
14 to look through them.
15 Q. He told you just to thumb through them.
16 A. No, just to look through them.
17 Q. Okay. Now, when did he do this.
18 A. Hmm, about a month ago.
19 Q. Did you do what he asked you to do.
20 A. No. I had school to concentrate on. I had
21 a final.
22 Q. Okay. So you didn’t do what Prosecutor
23 Sneddon asked you to do; isn’t that correct.
24 A. I eventually did it.
25 Q. Eventually you did. And can you just tell
26 us when.
27 A. What.
28 Q. Can you just tell us when you eventually did 1323
 

 
1 what Prosecutor Sneddon asked you to do.
2 A. Four weeks after he told me, or three weeks.
3 Q. Okay. And was that in the last month.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So you read all the documents you were sent
6 by Prosecutor Sneddon, right.
7 A. Yes. I didn’t memorize them. I just read
8 them and -- yeah.
9 Q. Well, did anyone tell you to memorize them.
10 A. No, I’m telling you I didn’t memorize all
11 those pages.
12 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the Santa
13 Barbara Sheriffs that there’s a big telescope on a
14 hill at Neverland that you and Gavin used to look
15 through.
16 A. We looked through once or twice, yes.
17 Q. And describe for the jury where that
18 telescope is, if you would.
19 A. It’s on a hill right before you enter the --
20 the second gate into the ranch.
21 Q. And from that hill, can you get a view of
22 Neverland.
23 A. Yes. You can also view into a guest unit.
24 Q. And you told the sheriffs that you and Gavin
25 used to look through that telescope into the guest
26 units, right.
27 A. Yes, we saw into one guest unit where my mom
28 was staying. 1324
 

 
1 Q. Okay. So you used to kind of look at your
2 mom through the telescope, right.
3 A. No, no, we just -- we were looking and we
4 saw a guest unit, and then we continued looking
5 somewhere else.
6 Q. Did you look into the window of that guest
7 unit.
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. And that’s where your mom was, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You saw your mom, right.
12 A. All you saw was her television and her bed.
13 But you didn’t -- you saw like a part of her bed.
14 You didn’t see her complete bed.
15 Q. Did you see her in the unit.
16 A. No.
17 Q. But your testimony was that your mom never
18 came out of the guest quarters, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember -- strike that.
21 Did you ever see your mom dancing with
22 Michael Jackson.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever go into the theater with
25 your -- with Michael Jackson and your mom.
26 A. I went in the theater a lot of times.
27 Q. Did you ever go into the theater with your
28 mom, Michael, Davellin and Gavin. 1325
 

 
1 A. Yes, to watch a movie.
2 Q. And how often did you do that.
3 A. My mom rarely came out.
4 Q. Well, but you just said -- first you said
5 she never went out. Then you admitted you’d been in
6 the theater with her, right.
7 A. I was thinking about something else.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. You kind of got it mixed into my memory.
10 Q. Okay. I don’t want to mix you up.
11 First you said your mom never came out of
12 the guest cottage, right.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then you admitted she’d been in the
15 theater with Michael and the family, right.
16 A. And I told you that my memories got mixed in
17 and I said something else.
18 Q. Okay. I’m just trying to find out what the
19 truth is, if I can.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. You said you were in the theater with your
22 mom, Michael, Gavin and Davellin, right.
23 A. Yes. But then I said after that, that no,
24 she wasn’t, because she wasn’t.
25 Q. Okay. So your mom never was in the theater
26 you’re saying now, right.
27 A. She probably was, but I wasn’t there. I
28 just remember going in there and watching movies. 1326
 

 
1 Q. All right. Now, the telescope on the hill
2 is a telescope that you and your brother used to
3 look through, correct.
4 A. It was twice we looked through the
5 telescope.
6 Q. And does the telescope move.
7 A. Yes. Moves in all directions.
8 Q. And if you take that telescope, you can see
9 the clocks at Neverland, can’t you.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Can you.
12 A. Trees were in the way.
13 Q. Trees are in the way.
14 A. Yes. There’s a lot of trees at Neverland.
15 Q. You can’t see one clock from that telescope.
16 A. Which clock are you referring to.
17 Q. Any of them.
18 A. There was, like, two clocks right beside
19 each other and a clock way over there by the
20 carnival. You can see the hands on that clock.
21 Q. That’s the clock by the carnival.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you said there are two other clocks you
24 mentioned.
25 A. Well, there’s one big clock.
26 Q. Right. One big clock.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Can you see that through the telescope. 1327
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. What clocks can you see through the
3 telescope.
4 A. The one by the carnival, but it’s too small
5 to look through. I mean, it’s too small to see the
6 hands moving.
7 Q. What about the big flower clock --
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. -- on the hill that overlooks Neverland.
10 Can you see that through the telescope.
11 A. No, the trees are in the way.
12 Q. You’re sure of that.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you try to do it.
15 A. Not really. We were looking; we just wanted
16 to look through it. We weren’t trying to look for
17 time. We were just looking through it, because --
18 because it was up there, so we were just trying to
19 look through it.
20 Q. You’re making up that trees block your view
21 through the telescope, aren’t you --
22 A. I’m just saying --
23 Q. -- Star.
24 A. -- I never really expected to look for a
25 clock. I just looked through it. I remember trees
26 and probably -- yeah. I remember trees, but I never
27 really -- the telescope was up there, so me and my
28 brother tried to look through it. 1328
 

 
1 Q. Why did you just tell the jury that trees
2 prevent you from seeing clocks through the telescope
3 on the hill that overlooks Neverland.
4 A. What does it matter. I mean, even when
5 you’re down there, you can see the clock. When
6 you’re driving the car. I don’t know what you’re
7 trying to get at.
8 Q. What else have you seen through that
9 telescope on the hill that overlooks Neverland.
10 A. Rides. And trees.
11 Q. What else.
12 A. And the guest unit.
13 Q. What else.
14 A. Hills.
15 Q. Can you see the theater.
16 A. Never really tried to see the theater.
17 Q. Can you see the main house.
18 A. Probably. I don’t know. I never really
19 tried.
20 Q. Well, did you and your brother take that
21 telescope and look all over Neverland on that hill
22 with the telescope that you’ve described moves.
23 A. It’s -- okay.
24 Q. Did you look all over Neverland at that --
25 through that moving telescope.
26 A. No, we just looked through it. We didn’t
27 try to examine the whole Neverland.
28 Q. How far away, if you know, is the guest unit 1329
 

 
1 from that telescope, if you know.
2 A. I don’t know, but I could guess.
3 Q. But you say you were up there only twice
4 with your brother, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know what time of day that was.
7 A. Daylight. Daytime.
8 Q. Okay. And certainly you’ve been to
9 Neverland at night, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you noticed that these clocks are lit
12 up at night.
13 A. The flower clock.
14 Q. Any of them.
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. You’ve noticed they’re lit up at night,
17 haven’t you.
18 A. I just noticed that the train station is lit
19 up, and so is the flower clock. I can’t -- there’s
20 the flower clock overlooking Neverland. Not
21 overlooking. It’s right there.
22 Q. Right up on a hill above the main house,
23 correct.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You’ve seen that clock lit at night, true.
26 A. I don’t remember if it was lit, but it was
27 probably lit, yeah.
28 Q. Well, why do you tell the jury it was 1330
 

 
1 probably lit.
2 A. I don’t know. I’m trying to remember.
3 THE COURT: Is this a good place to stop,
4 Counsel.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. Remember the
7 admonition, and I’ll see you tomorrow morning at
8 8:30.
9 (The proceedings adjourned at 11:30 a.m.)
10 --o0o--
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28 1331
 

 
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 1257 through 1331
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on March 8, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 March 8, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 1332
