 

 
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
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15
16 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
17
18 MONDAY, MARCH 7, 2005
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20 8:30 A.M.
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22 (PAGES 960 THROUGH 996)
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27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 960
 

 
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3
For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
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10
11
12 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. 
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
13 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
14 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067
15
16 -and-
17 SANGER & SWYSEN
18 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. East Carrillo Street, Suite C
19 Santa Barbara, California 93101
20 -and-
21
22 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
23 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
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28 961
 

 
1 I N D E X
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3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
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9 PLAINTIFF’S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
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11 ARVIZO, Davellin 964-M (cont’d)
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28 962
 

 
1 E X H I B I T S
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3 FOR IN DEFENDANT’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
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5 5000 Brad Miller DVD 983 985 (Remarked)
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28 963
 

 
1 Santa Maria, California
2 Monday, March 7, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: Good morning.
6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Mesereau.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
9 Should I check this, double-check this.
10 Hello.
11 THE JURY: Hello.
12 MR. MESEREAU: All right.
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)
15 Q. Miss Arvizo, you testified last week that
16 you recall a trip from Neverland with Michael
17 Jackson to a store named Toys R Us; do you remember
18 that.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you testified that Mr. Jackson took you
21 and your brothers and some fans to Toys R Us, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know approximately when that was.
24 A. I don’t remember when.
25 Q. And you did say that on the way Mr. Jackson
26 saw some fans and picked them up, and you all went
27 to Toys R Us together, right.
28 A. Yes. 964
 

 
1 Q. And Mr. Jackson paid for toys for everybody,
2 correct.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recall anybody ever complaining that
5 they were being falsely imprisoned at Toys R Us.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall anybody complaining that they
8 were there against their will, at Toys R Us.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, do you know what a sworn deposition is
11 in a civil case.
12 A. Kind of. Not really.
13 Q. Has anyone ever told you that a sworn
14 deposition is a procedure in a civil case where
15 somebody sits down and answers questions under oath.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And who told you that.
18 A. Well, I was sitting in the one that Gavin
19 took during the J.C. Penney’s case.
20 Q. And you were also sitting in the one that
21 Star gave in the J.C. Penney case, correct.
22 A. I don’t remember that. I was just sitting
23 with Gavin.
24 Q. Well, didn’t you tell the jury last week
25 that you know nothing about the J.C. Penney case.
26 A. I just remembered right now when you said
27 “deposition.”
28 Q. So you sat there in Gavin’s deposition in 965
 

 
1 the J.C. Penney case, correct.
2 A. Because he wanted me to be next to him, and
3 I held his hand.
4 Q. And your mother was there too, correct.
5 A. I don’t remember her sitting there.
6 Q. You also sat in Star’s deposition, true.
7 A. I don’t remember sitting in Star’s.
8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
9 show you the page of the deposition transcript that
10 lists you as attending.
11 A. (Nods head up and down.)
12 Q. Could I show it to you.
13 A. That’s fine. I just didn’t remember. All I
14 remember is really sitting with Gavin.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
20 look at that page.
21 A. No, that was the first time.
22 Q. Well, does it refresh your recollection that
23 you were present for Star’s deposition as well.
24 A. All I remember is the taping of Gavin’s.
25 I don’t remember Star’s.
26 Q. Okay. What -- my point is this: When you
27 told the jury last week you didn’t know anything
28 about the J.C. Penney case, that wasn’t correct, 966
 

 
1 right.
2 A. Well, when you said “deposition,” it
3 refreshed my memory. That was a long time ago. I
4 was, like, 11.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you also told the jury last week
6 you have no knowledge of Gavin having disciplinary
7 problems at school before he ever met Mr. Jackson,
8 right.
9 A. I know he talks a lot, yes.
10 Q. Well, that’s what you said, the only problem
11 you were aware of is that he was talkative, correct.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You also said to -- you were asked by me,
14 “To your knowledge, was he ever asked to leave
15 school,” and you said you don’t know, right.
16 A. I don’t -- no, I don’t remember.
17 Q. Well, you sat there in Gavin’s deposition in
18 the J.C. Penney case where he admitted that he got
19 in lots of fights and got thrown out of school,
20 right. You were sitting right there, right.
21 A. He’s never been thrown out of school.
22 Q. You heard him say it under oath, didn’t you.
23 A. I don’t remember. It was a long time ago.
24 All I remember, I was in my grandmother’s house, and
25 I was holding his hand, and they were taping the
26 deposition. That’s all I remember.
27 Q. Do you remember at the deposition Gavin was
28 asked, “Have you ever had problems at school where 967
 

 
1 you got into a lot of fights.” And he said, “Yes”.
2 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as asked
3 and answered.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember Gavin
6 saying he was thrown out of school for fighting.
7 MR. SNEDDON: Object; asked and answered.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Are you telling the jury
10 you never heard Gavin ever make a statement like
11 that at any time.
12 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
13 object as asked and answered, and ask the Court to
14 admonish counsel. He knows better than this.
15 MR. MESEREAU: I object, Your Honor, to the
16 colloquy.
17 MR. SNEDDON: I have a right to make a
18 record. And I -- I’m asking the Court -- this is
19 the third objection in a row that’s been asked and
20 answered.
21 THE COURT: Sustained. You may sit down.
22 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Are you telling the jury
24 today, under oath, that you have no knowledge of
25 Gavin ever being asked to leave school before he met
26 Mr. Jackson.
27 MR. SNEDDON: Object as asked and answered.
28 THE COURT: Overruled. 968
 

 
1 THE WITNESS: All I know is that he was very
2 talkative. I don’t remember. I’m not involved in
3 that.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: I’m sorry, excuse me. I
5 interrupted.
6 A. I’m not involved in that. My mom is.
7 Q. Have you ever discussed with Gavin his being
8 thrown out of school for fighting.
9 A. All I know is he would get in trouble, so I
10 would tell him, “Just be quiet, Gavin. You don’t
11 need to talk back.” That’s all I remember.
12 Q. Have you ever discussed with Gavin his
13 problems with fights in school before he met Mr.
14 Jackson.
15 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as asked
16 and answered.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 THE WITNESS: I don’t know. I don’t
19 remember.
20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Do you remember,
21 I asked you last week if you had ever discussed the
22 J.C. Penney case with Gavin or your mom. Remember,
23 I asked you that question.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You said you had not discussed it with
26 either of them, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. How could that be, if you attended those 969
 

 
1 depositions.
2 A. I’m not talking to them about it.
3 Q. Before.
4 A. No. I haven’t talked to them about it at
5 all. I’m just sitting there. I don’t know anything
6 about the case. I was just sitting there to comfort
7 my brother. He wanted me to be with him. I’m not
8 even paying attention to what he’s saying. I’m just
9 paying attention to how he’s looking. And that was
10 during his chemo.
11 Q. So you had never discussed the J.C. Penney
12 case with him before you attended his deposition.
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you never discussed the J.C. Penney case
15 with any of your family members before you attended
16 Star’s deposition.
17 A. Never.
18 Q. You never discussed the J.C. Penney case
19 with Gavin or your mom or Star after Gavin’s
20 deposition.
21 A. Never.
22 Q. And you never discussed the J.C. Penney case
23 with Star, your mom or Gavin after Star’s
24 deposition.
25 A. Never.
26 Q. You just kind of got there, silently
27 listened, left, and never talked to anybody about
28 it, right. 970
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. Now, you testified last week about
3 seeing Mr. Jackson and your brothers go into the
4 wine cellar, correct.
5 A. I saw somebody going downstairs. And then
6 when I was already in the wine cellar, I knew who it
7 was.
8 Q. Was that the only time you ever saw anybody
9 go into the wine cellar.
10 A. I saw several times people go down, but I
11 never really went. I always saw, like, open --
12 people going down, but I never really followed. It
13 was just that one time.
14 Q. Just the one time.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you described the --
17 THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. Mr. Jackson
18 needs to go to the rest room. We’ll take a break.
19 MR. OXMAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
20 (Recess taken.)
21 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, would it be useful
22 to take care of a stipulation on a technical matter
23 while Mr. Jackson’s --
24 THE COURT: I think we need to wait till he
25 comes back.
26 MR. SANGER: Okay. Very well.
27 MR. MESEREAU: May I see Mr. Jackson, Your
28 Honor. 971
 

 
1 (Brief interruption.)
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall, Miss
3 Arvizo, giving the Santa Barbara Sheriffs a detailed
4 description of the wine cellar at Neverland.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what did you tell them.
7 A. I told them that I walked down the stairs,
8 and then you make a right, and there’s a room and it
9 has sleeping bags. And then there’s another room,
10 and it’s a way smaller room. And on the left-hand
11 side, there’s wine bottles on the wall. And then
12 there’s a -- I think there’s a counter in the room,
13 too, and cupboards.
14 Q. Did you tell them anything about sleeping
15 bags.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. What did you tell them.
18 A. That after you walk down the stairs and you
19 make a right into the room, and I think there’s
20 sleeping bags on the wall. I don’t remember.
21 Q. You told them about cubbyholes with sleeping
22 bags, correct.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you’re telling the jury today that
25 you’ve only been down there one time, correct.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. The truth is, you’ve been down there many
28 times with your brothers without Mr. Jackson, true. 972
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by the Santa
3 Barbara Sheriffs on August 13th, 2003, or
4 approximately that time.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you remember, you were asked when you
7 observed the wine cellar, and you said “many times”
8 during your visits to Neverland.
9 A. Well, many times I’ve seen it. But I never
10 went down there many times.
11 Q. How can you see it if you don’t go down the
12 stairs into the wine cellar.
13 A. Maybe I misunderstood the questions. But I
14 only remember going down there once and seeing it.
15 Q. Are you saying you never told the Santa
16 Barbara Sheriffs you’d been down there many times.
17 A. I don’t remember. All I remember is being
18 down there once and being able to see everything.
19 I don’t --
20 Q. Did you ever learn that your brothers had
21 been caught down there without Mr. Jackson, having
22 broken into the cellar and drinking.
23 A. I don’t remember that.
24 MR. SNEDDON: Object. It also -- excuse me.
25 Calls for -- assumes facts not in evidence.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you’re aware that
28 alcohol is kept in the kitchen area, correct. 973
 

 
1 A. I don’t know.
2 Q. Did you ever tell the police there’s a
3 glass-like closure on a refrigerator that has
4 alcoholic beverages in the kitchen area.
5 A. I know behind, like, a glass cupboard
6 there’s some -- I don’t know.
7 Q. Did you ever see any alcoholic beverages in
8 that refrigerator area.
9 A. I don’t know. I don’t remember.
10 Q. Well, you’ve been in that area many times,
11 correct, with your brothers, right.
12 A. When I would go to eat myself, yes.
13 Q. And typically when would you go to eat by
14 yourself.
15 A. In the afternoon.
16 Q. And when you went by yourself, were you
17 easily able to get in the main house.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How did you get in the main house.
20 A. I would either ring for somebody to come, or
21 if I remembered the code to get into the main house.
22 Q. And how did you get the code.
23 A. One of the security guards gave it to me.
24 Q. And did you have any other codes.
25 A. No. That was the only one I had.
26 Q. Your brothers had codes, didn’t they.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. They had codes to the wine cellar, didn’t 974
 

 
1 they.
2 A. I don’t remember that.
3 Q. They had codes to Mr. Jackson’s room, didn’t
4 they.
5 A. I didn’t know they had that one.
6 Q. And they went up to the room without Mr.
7 Jackson present, correct.
8 A. Anytime Mr. Jackson wasn’t on the ranch,
9 they were with me.
10 Q. That’s not what you said last week, is it.
11 Last week you said that when your brothers were on
12 the ranch, they always left you alone, correct.
13 A. No. When Mr. Jackson wasn’t on the ranch,
14 they were with me.
15 Q. Well, you had knowledge that your brothers
16 were going into the main house when Mr. Jackson
17 wasn’t even there, correct.
18 A. When Mr. Jackson wasn’t there, they were
19 with me. There was no reason for us to be apart if
20 Mr. Jackson wasn’t there.
21 Q. Well, you -- correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t
22 you tell the jury last week, “When I would visit
23 Neverland, my brothers would go off and, for the
24 most part, leave me alone”. Did you say that.
25 A. If Mr. Jackson was there, yes, I said that
26 last week.
27 Q. So you’re -- now you’re saying whenever
28 Mr. Jackson wasn’t there, all three of you hung 975
 

 
1 around together; is that right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you go into the main house together when
4 Mr. Jackson wasn’t there.
5 A. Yes. To go eat and watch T.V., yeah.
6 Q. And how many times do you think you did that
7 when Mr. Jackson wasn’t there.
8 A. I don’t know.
9 Q. Many times, correct.
10 A. Well, they’re growing boys. They wanted to
11 eat a lot, I guess.
12 Q. And you visited Neverland many occasions
13 when Mr. Jackson wasn’t even there, right.
14 A. No. Not me.
15 Q. Well, you went there a couple of times with
16 Chris Tucker, did you not.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Jackson wasn’t there during those
19 visits, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you go into the main house with
22 Chris Tucker.
23 A. Well, with -- with Chris Tucker, who was
24 there, and with my brothers, yes.
25 Q. And would you simply grab food when you
26 wanted it.
27 A. Whatever was on the -- where the drinks
28 were. I wouldn’t go into the kitchen. 976
 

 
1 Q. Well, if you go in the main house, you walk
2 into a lobby area, correct.
3 A. When you go into the -- through the back
4 way, there’s glass refrigerators, and I would grab a
5 drink from there. But I wouldn’t go into the
6 kitchen area and grab stuff.
7 Q. Well, you have to go into the kitchen area
8 to grab food, don’t you.
9 A. To sit down, and they make it for you.
10 Q. But to go in on your own and to pick up food
11 in the kitchen area, you have to go into the
12 kitchen, correct.
13 A. Yeah, but I’m not going in there where the
14 refrigerators are and stuff.
15 Q. If you’re in the kitchen area, you have to
16 be near the refrigerators, don’t you.
17 A. But I’m sitting down. I’m not making it for
18 myself or going through things.
19 Q. But if -- you’re talking about sitting down
20 at the counter area. Is that what you’re talking
21 about.
22 A. Like the bench area, yes.
23 Q. And Mr. Jackson has buns and rolls and
24 things available right where you sit down, correct.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And right to your left is the refrigerator
27 area, true.
28 A. Towards the back area and to the left, yes. 977
 

 
1 Q. And there’s sliding doors, right.
2 A. They’re -- no, they’re pulling doors.
3 Q. How do you know they’re pulling doors.
4 A. Because I would open them and get a drink
5 once in a while.
6 Q. And your brothers would also, correct.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you will find alcohol in those
9 refrigerator areas, correct.
10 A. All I remember is there was Yoohoos, juice,
11 different waters. I don’t remember seeing alcohol.
12 Q. But clearly your brothers would go into that
13 refrigerator area when Mr. Jackson wasn’t around,
14 right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. They would go into the kitchen when Mr.
17 Jackson wasn’t around, right.
18 A. To get something, yes.
19 Q. And they would walk through the house when
20 Mr. Jackson wasn’t around, correct.
21 A. We wouldn’t really go into the main house,
22 because there wasn’t really anything else to do but
23 eat.
24 Q. Well, you have all kinds of rooms with toys,
25 games, all kinds of things in that main house, don’t
26 you.
27 A. But I’m not really interested in those kind
28 of little toys. 978
 

 
1 Q. Well, they’re not all little toys, now, are
2 they.
3 A. Mainly from what I remember, yes.
4 Q. Your brothers were caught on numerous
5 occasions in that house with Mr. Jackson absent,
6 right.
7 A. To go get something to eat, that’s all I
8 remember.
9 Q. Well, you described in detail to the
10 sheriffs what you saw in Mr. Jackson’s room,
11 correct.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You described in detail that there was a
14 lower level, a stairway, and a higher level,
15 correct.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You told the sheriffs in detail what you saw
18 on those various levels, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That’s because you were in there on numerous
21 occasions, correct.
22 A. No.
23 Q. And you know that your brothers had that
24 code to get in there when Mr. Jackson wasn’t around,
25 didn’t they.
26 A. Yeah, but the outer door, that’s locked too.
27 Q. But they seemed to get into that also,
28 didn’t they. 979
 

 
1 A. Not that I remember, no.
2 Q. Well, you gave the Santa Barbara Sheriffs a
3 detailed description of Mr. Jackson’s bathroom,
4 right.
5 A. The one that’s inside the room, yes.
6 Q. Well, you had spent time in there, correct.
7 A. No. I never went to the rest room in there.
8 Q. How could you give a detailed description of
9 the rest room if you haven’t spent time looking at
10 what’s in there.
11 A. Because I was in the room the one time, and
12 I was just looking around. I had never been in
13 there. I wanted to see. And you just -- you can
14 look in and see what’s in there.
15 Q. When your brothers and you were at Neverland
16 without Mr. Jackson, did you go into the theater.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What did you do in the theater with your
19 brothers when Mr. Jackson wasn’t there.
20 A. Watch movies, get little snacks.
21 Q. What are the kinds of movies you used to
22 watch.
23 A. I don’t remember.
24 Q. Okay. How did you get the movies.
25 A. We would ask somebody from the front. I
26 don’t remember.
27 Q. Okay. But you had access to the theater
28 when you wanted, right. 980
 

 
1 A. Yes. It was open.
2 Q. No one ever told you you couldn’t enter the
3 theater and watch a film, right.
4 A. Not that I remember, no.
5 Q. Nobody ever told you you couldn’t have food
6 in the theater, popcorn, ice cream, sodas, whatever
7 you wanted, right.
8 A. Not that I remember, no.
9 Q. And you indicated that one particular -- you
10 first met Mr. Jackson approximately in the year
11 2000, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You indicated that you didn’t come back, you
14 don’t think, in the year 2001, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. You started to come back in 2002,
17 right.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When did Chris Tucker first take you to
20 Neverland, if you know.
21 A. In 2001. Because we didn’t meet him until
22 2001.
23 Q. And you indicated that at one point Mr.
24 Jackson had given your family a vehicle, right.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Were you ever in any discussions with Aja
27 Tucker about getting another vehicle from Chris
28 Tucker. 981
 

 
1 A. I know -- because we didn’t have no car at
2 that time. And Chris had told me, “I’m giving you
3 guys a Christmas present, and it’s Aja’s old car.”
4 Q. And you gave Aja and Chris your mother’s
5 driver’s license information, correct.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You gave it to them so the car could be
8 transferred into your mother’s name, right.
9 A. Yeah, they wanted it so they could put it in
10 my mom’s name.
11 Q. You never told them that Michael Jackson had
12 given your car a family as well.
13 A. Well, we didn’t have that car at that time.
14 We had no car at that time.
15 Q. When did you first get a car from Mr.
16 Jackson.
17 A. When Gavin was -- during his chemotherapy.
18 It was for Gavin.
19 Q. And didn’t you tell the jury last week that
20 you never asked Chris Tucker for any assistance.
21 A. We didn’t ask him for it. He said, “I want
22 to give this to you guys for a Christmas present.”
23 Q. So you then got the driver’s license info
24 from your mother and sent it to Chris.
25 A. No, I gave it to Aja.
26 Q. Did you ever get that car.
27 A. No.
28 Q. What happened. 982
 

 
1 A. I don’t know. It just -- we didn’t get it
2 after all, because of -- the communication broke off
3 because of this.
4 Q. Okay. So in your mind, but for this
5 investigation, you would have gotten a second car
6 from Aja, correct.
7 A. We’ve only -- we didn’t have a car at that
8 time, so it wouldn’t have been a second car.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. We were driving the bus. We were in the
11 bus.
12 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, at this time I’d
13 like to, with the Court’s permission, play the Brad
14 Miller interview tape for the jury.
15 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, let me address a
16 technical matter on that, if I may.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 MR. SANGER: I’ve talked with Mr. Sneddon,
19 and this is acceptable. We’re not quite sure what
20 all the technical problems were, so we got a new
21 disk that was made directly from the original, and
22 it is not the one that’s marked 5000.
23 And what we would ask to do - it’s in the
24 machine right now - after we play it, we’d ask that
25 the new disk be marked as 5000, and this --
26 THE BAILIFF: You need to speak into the
27 microphone.
28 MR. SANGER: And this old disk is -- the one 983
 

 
1 that was marked just be given back to us, if that’s
2 all right.
3 THE COURT: In other words, you want to
4 exchange the new disk for the old disk and keep the
5 same number.
6 MR. SANGER: That’s correct.
7 THE COURT: Is that agreeable, Mr. Sneddon.
8 MR. SNEDDON: It is, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: All right. I’ll approve that.
10 THE BAILIFF: Are you playing off the DVD.
11 MR. SANGER: We’re going to play off the
12 DVD. And with the Court’s permission now, we will
13 play Exhibit 5000.
14 THE BAILIFF: Are you playing off the player
15 down there.
16 MR. SANGER: I’m playing off the player down
17 there.
18 THE BAILIFF: So you need to go to “Input
19 4,” and you need to push the DVD player.
20 MR. SANGER: Right. I think they had it all
21 set up.
22 THE COURT: And the screen doesn’t matter,
23 because it’s just an audiotape.
24 MR. SANGER: May I proceed, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Yes.
26 (Whereupon, an audiotape, Defendant’s
27 Exhibit No. 5000, was played for the Court and
28 jury.) 984
 

 
1 THE COURT: Lorna, is that in evidence.
2 THE CLERK: No.
3 MR. MESEREAU: May I proceed, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Are you offering that in
5 evidence.
6 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, we are.
7 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I have no
8 objection. With the Court’s permission, I would
9 like an opportunity to get a copy of that one. I
10 won’t say anything else. But just -- if the Court
11 would give me permission to get a copy.
12 THE COURT: You have permission.
13 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you.
14 THE COURT: It’s admitted into evidence.
15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Arvizo, you testified
16 last week that you didn’t know Mr. Miller worked for
17 Mr. Geragos, correct.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He said that twice in this interview, true.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Have you ever discussed with your mother who
22 Mr. Brad Miller worked for.
23 A. Wasn’t really a subject.
24 Q. Well, have you ever discussed it with her.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Now, you know that your mother appeared for
27 a pre-trial hearing in this case a number of months
28 ago, right. 985
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you knew the issue was whether or not
3 she knew Mr. Miller worked for Geragos, didn’t you.
4 A. No. All I knew is she came up here.
5 Q. You never discussed what she was coming up
6 here for with her.
7 A. No.
8 Q. And never discussed what she said.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Now, this interview that you just
11 heard took place on February 16th, 2003, right.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you heard that date when Mr. Miller
14 began the interview, right.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. This was after your mother and Gavin had
17 sued J.C. Penney for false imprisonment and sexual
18 assault, true.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And this was after your mother had claimed
21 that security guards at J.C. Penney, in a public
22 parking lot, pulled her breasts out of her blouse
23 and falsely imprisoned her, right.
24 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I am going to
25 object. There’s no facts into evidence of this.
26 She said she didn’t know anything about the lawsuit.
27 Counsel is just doing this deliberately.
28 THE COURT: Sustained. 986
 

 
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, this interview on
2 February 16th, 2003, was also after your mother had
3 called the police on David Arvizo, correct.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was after she had called the police on
6 David Arvizo and accused him of false imprisonment
7 and molestation, right.
8 A. After I had told her, yes.
9 Q. Okay. Approximately one week after this
10 interview, you and your mother went to another
11 attorney, correct.
12 A. I don’t remember.
13 Q. You went to someone named William Dickerman,
14 correct.
15 A. I don’t know William.
16 Q. Well, you met with him at The Laugh Factory,
17 right.
18 A. I know his name is Bill. I don’t know.
19 Q. And you and your mother met with him to try
20 and put together a lawsuit against Michael Jackson,
21 right.
22 A. I never met with him. I only met with him
23 that one time.
24 Q. What time was this.
25 A. A while ago.
26 Q. And approximately when; do you know.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Well, you testified last week that at some 987
 

 
1 point, Vinnie picked you and your mom up and drove
2 you to The Laugh Factory on Sunset, right.
3 A. All of us went. It was me, my brothers, and
4 my mom.
5 Q. You all went to The Laugh Factory on Sunset,
6 right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was after your interview with the
9 three social workers, right.
10 A. I think so. I don’t remember -- no, it
11 wasn’t. Because after the interview with the three
12 ladies was when Aja took us up to Neverland.
13 Q. When did you go to The Laugh Factory on
14 Sunset with Vinnie.
15 A. I think it was during the time we were in
16 Calabasas. I don’t remember.
17 Q. You stopped at The Laugh Factory with
18 Vinnie, right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And your mom got out to meet Jamie Masada
21 and a lawyer named Bill Dickerman, right.
22 A. I didn’t know who he was at that time.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And, like, Gavin got off with her.
25 Q. So Gavin and your mom went to meet with the
26 attorney named Bill Dickerman in The Laugh Factory,
27 right.
28 A. All I knew is they were going to go see 988
 

 
1 Jamie. I met him when I went upstairs for a few --
2 couple of seconds. And I didn’t hear what they were
3 saying. I just said -- I gave my mom a message and
4 ran back downstairs.
5 Q. When you say you met him, do you mean you
6 met Attorney Bill Dickerman.
7 A. Yeah, I just saw him there. I didn’t
8 really --
9 Q. So your mom and Gavin were meeting with him,
10 right.
11 A. Jamie was there also, yes.
12 Q. And that’s after this interview with Brad
13 Miller on February 16th, 2003, right.
14 A. I don’t know.
15 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet with Attorney Bill
16 Dickerman after that day at The Laugh Factory.
17 A. A while after, yes.
18 Q. And how many times did you meet with
19 Attorney Bill Dickerman.
20 A. Once.
21 Q. Were you with your mother.
22 A. All of us were in the room.
23 Q. And do you mean Gavin as well.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Star as well.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Okay. Is that the only meeting you recall
28 ever having with Attorney Bill Dickerman. 989
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, at some point, you went and met with an
3 attorney named Larry Feldman, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That was after you first met Attorney Bill
6 Dickerman, correct.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was at an office in Beverly Hills,
9 right.
10 A. I don’t know where it’s at.
11 Q. Okay. You went with your mother, Gavin and
12 Star, right.
13 A. And Jamie was there. And so was Jay.
14 Q. Jay Jackson.
15 A. I think he went with us. I don’t remember.
16 But Jamie was.
17 Q. Now, at this recorded interview by Brad
18 Miller that we just heard of February 16th, 2003,
19 Major Jay Jackson is sitting there listening to it,
20 right.
21 A. He’s sitting there, yes.
22 Q. And it’s in his home, right.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you’re saying that after this interview,
25 Jay Jackson went to a lawyer with the family.
26 A. I don’t remember when we went, but it wasn’t
27 during then.
28 Q. And the interview with the three social 990
 

 
1 workers was at Jay Jackson’s home also, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And was Jay Jackson there that day.
4 A. No, he wasn’t.
5 Q. How many times did you meet with Attorney
6 Larry Feldman.
7 A. Once.
8 Q. And at some point, he agreed to represent
9 the whole family, true.
10 A. I don’t know that.
11 Q. Well, you knew that he had sued Michael
12 Jackson in the early ‘90s, true.
13 A. I didn’t know who he was. I just --
14 Q. Never discussed it with your mom.
15 A. Never.
16 Q. All right. Will you agree that shortly
17 after this recorded interview of February 16th,
18 2003, your family began meeting with lawyers.
19 A. No. It wasn’t shortly after then, no.
20 Q. How long after it was it.
21 A. I don’t know. But it was way after.
22 Q. Way after. Like how long; do you think.
23 A. After March. I don’t know.
24 Q. Okay. But you met with Dickerman --
25 A. Once.
26 Q. -- on Sunset.
27 A. I didn’t meet with him. I just saw him
28 there. 991
 

 
1 Q. Okay. Okay. And you think that was after
2 you left the Calabasas Inn, right.
3 A. I’m not sure.
4 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, you’d agree that in this
5 recorded interview with Brad Miller, and in the
6 rebuttal videotape that was shown last week, and in
7 your interviews with the social workers, your mother
8 continually praised Michael Jackson as a father
9 figure, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you continually praised Michael Jackson
12 as a father figure, right.
13 A. I was just really copying, because I didn’t
14 know what to say. I was just latching onto
15 something because David was never really a father.
16 So I was just latching on something to call a
17 father. I didn’t know what a father is.
18 Q. Did you ever discuss with your mother,
19 “We’re going to call Michael Jackson a father
20 figure”.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Never did.
23 A. No. It’s the boys that brought it up.
24 Q. Okay. Well, certainly your mother praises
25 him in all of these interviews as being a father to
26 her children, true.
27 A. I guess seeing the boys so excited, you
28 know, anything that makes us happy, she -- I don’t 992
 

 
1 know. She gets it from us.
2 Q. You were sitting in this interview when your
3 mother said, essentially, she liked the boys to be
4 with Michael Jackson at night because they’re safe,
5 right.
6 A. I think she was just talking about the times
7 that Gavin would go to Neverland with Gavin and we
8 don’t know what happened.
9 Q. But your mother was encouraging your
10 brothers to go into the main house and be with
11 Michael Jackson, right.
12 A. You would have to ask her that. But I
13 would -- she never encouraged it. It was the boys
14 wanted to be there.
15 Q. Well, doesn’t she say that in that recorded
16 interview.
17 A. If it makes him happy, she’s going to push
18 it. She loves for us to be happy. Anything that
19 makes us happy, she’s going to say, “Go ahead, go.”
20 Q. But isn’t it true that, as far as you know,
21 she pushed your brothers to be in the main house
22 with Michael Jackson shortly before she went to a
23 lawyer to try and develop a lawsuit against him,
24 right.
25 A. What are you asking me. Like --
26 Q. If you know an answer to what I just said.
27 Do you have any --
28 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as 993
 

 
1 argumentative.
2 THE COURT: She’s asked you to rephrase the
3 question.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Okay.
5 Q. As far as you know, your mother was
6 encouraging your brothers to be in Michael Jackson’s
7 house at night shortly before she went to a lawyer
8 to try and develop a lawsuit against Michael
9 Jackson, right.
10 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to that
11 question as argumentative and assumes facts not in
12 evidence. It’s also compound.
13 THE COURT: Sustained on compound.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You would agree, you heard
15 your mother on many occasions encourage your
16 brothers to go into the main house and spend time
17 with Michael Jackson in the evening, right.
18 A. She wouldn’t encourage them. She’d just see
19 them happy. She wouldn’t push them to go do it.
20 She just -- they would go.
21 Q. You heard your mother --
22 A. I heard it, but I’m telling you what I know.
23 Q. Okay. She would encourage your brothers to
24 spend time with Michael Jackson at night because she
25 wanted Michael to be the father figure in the
26 family, right.
27 A. She never encouraged it. It’s whatever the
28 boys want, whatever makes them happy, she’s going to 994
 

 
1 let them do.
2 Q. Now, you said in the interview with Brad
3 Miller, referring to Michael Jackson, “He’s a bigger
4 father to all of us. He’s given us safety. He’s
5 given us love. He’s given us everything we’ve ever
6 wanted. He’s been our father figure. He’s the only
7 thing we know to be a father.” You said that,
8 right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you meant it when you said it, didn’t
11 you.
12 A. At that point, I still liked Mr. Jackson.
13 And that was the point that David had left and --
14 I don’t know, I was just latching onto something,
15 because I don’t know what a description of a father
16 is. I had 16 years of just abuse. I don’t know
17 what it is. I just latched onto something.
18 Q. Do you want to take a minute.
19 A. I’m fine.
20 THE COURT: I think it’s time for the morning
21 break now.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
23 (Recess taken.)
24
25
26
27
28 995
 

 
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 964 through 995
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on March 7, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 March 7, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 996
 

 
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
17
18 MONDAY, MARCH 7, 2005
19
20 (PAGES 997 THROUGH 1184)
21
22
23
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 997
 

 
1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3
For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney
-and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN,
Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and-
GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney
1112 Santa Barbara Street
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11
12 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU
BY: THOMAS A. MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
13 -and-
SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
14 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700
Los Angeles, California 90067
15
16 -and-
17
SANGER & SWYSEN
18 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ.
233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C
19 Santa Barbara, California 93101
20
-and-
 

 
21
22 OXMAN and JAROSCAK
BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.
23 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard
Santa Fe Springs, California 90670
24
25
26
27
28 998
 

 
1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.
5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.
6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.
7
8
9 PLAINTIFF’S
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
10
11 ARVIZO, Star David 1013-S
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 999
 

 
1 E X H I B I T S
2
3 FOR IN PLAINTIFF’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
4
5 50 Photograph 1040 1042
6 52 Photograph 1040 1042
7 53 Photograph 1041 1042
8 54 Photograph 1041 1042
9 55 Photograph 1131 1134
10 58 Photograph 1131 1134
11 69 Photograph 1131 1134
12 71 Photograph 1132 1134
13 72 Photograph 1132 1134
14 74 Photograph 1132 1134
15 77 Photograph 1133 1134
16 78 Photograph 1133 1134
17 79 Photograph 1133 1134
18 86 Photograph 1154 1158
19 90 Photograph 1131 1134
20 91 Photograph 1130 1134
21 92 Photograph 1130 1134
22 93 Photograph 1130 1134
23 94 Photograph 1133 1134
24 95 Photograph 1134 1134
25 97 Photgraph 1133 1134
26 110 Photograph 1042 1042
27 111 Photograph 1042 1042
28 1000
 

 
1 E X H I B I T S (Continued)
2
3 FOR IN
4 PLAINTIFF’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
5 153 Photograph 1161 1161
6 158 Photograph 1131 1134
7 165 Photograph 1132 1134
8 188 Photograph 1040 1042
9 193 Photograph 1118 1118
10 196 Photographi 1041 1042
11 341 Diagram of interior of private jet (Star Arvizo) 1082 1083
12
470 Clear plastic bag containing
13 briefcase 1151
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 1001
 

 
1 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Arvizo, in the Brad
3 Miller tape-recording that we just heard --
4 THE BAILIFF: Would you turn your microphone
5 on, please.
6 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, excuse me.
7 Let me start again.
8 Q. Ms. Arvizo, in the Brad Miller
9 tape-recording that we just heard, your mother talks
10 about the family being inundated with British, local
11 newspapers, national newspapers, magazines, T.V.
12 shows, Celebrity Justice, et cetera. Do you
13 remember that.
14 A. What’s the word “inundated”. What does that
15 mean.
16 Q. Pardon me.
17 A. What does “inundated” mean.
18 Q. I’m sorry. I should have chose a better
19 word.
20 Your mother says that different kinds of
21 media have attempted to contact her; do you recall
22 that.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you recall her being contacted by
25 Celebrity Justice.
26 A. The only one --
27 Q. Do you remember that.
28 A. The only one I remember is the one coming to 1002
 

 
1 the apartment.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. That’s all I remember.
4 Q. Okay. She says, “The children’s old school
5 and the children’s new school are being contacted by
6 media.” Did you know anything about that.
7 A. I don’t know.
8 Q. Okay. And if the school told that to your
9 mother, you weren’t involved, right.
10 A. All I remember is that one coming to the
11 apartment. I don’t remember any others.
12 Q. So she uses words, “It’s been swarmed.”
13 But you don’t know anything more than what you just
14 testified to, right.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Okay. Now, your mother says, “We’ve been
17 rejected, neglected, spit on, fried, tried, burned,
18 abused, the doors shut in our face, opportunities
19 lost. And Michael said -- took us from way behind
20 in the line and pulled us up to the front and said,
21 ‘You matter to me. You may not matter to many
22 people, but you matter to me and that’s what’s
23 important.’”
24 Do you know what she was referring to when
25 she talked about your family being rejected,
26 neglected, spit on, fried, et cetera.
27 A. I don’t know. I guess emotions from David.
28 I don’t know. 1003
 

 
1 Q. Okay. You were present with your mom when
2 she reported David to the Los Angeles Police
3 Department, right.
4 A. Which time.
5 Q. Well, there was October -- excuse me,
6 October 1st, 2001, do you remember that.
7 A. The one that I asked her to call the police,
8 I was present for that one. But the one that -- the
9 first one, I don’t -- I wasn’t there.
10 Q. Were you present when your mother told the
11 Los Angeles Police Department that Michael Jackson,
12 Fritz Coleman and Kobe Bryant would assist her with
13 this incident.
14 A. I don’t remember that.
15 Q. Okay. Were you present with her on
16 October 4th, 2001, when she called the Los Angeles
17 Police Department about your father.
18 A. I don’t know the dates, but I was only
19 present after I told her what had happened with me
20 and my father. Then she called the police. The
21 other one -- any other incident I was not present.
22 Q. Were you present when she told the police
23 officer from Los Angeles that she wanted to show him
24 a videotape and numerous photos of she and her
25 children spending time with various celebrities.
26 A. I don’t remember that.
27 Q. Okay. Do you recall your mother said on the
28 Brad Miller interview that Michael Jackson prayed 1004
 

 
1 with the family.
2 A. Yes, I heard it.
3 Q. That happened one time in the theater,
4 didn’t it.
5 A. No.
6 Q. You don’t remember that.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you remember the family praying with
9 Michael Jackson.
10 A. Not really.
11 Q. Okay. Do you think maybe your mother and
12 Michael and the brothers did it without you.
13 A. I don’t believe so.
14 Q. Is that possible.
15 A. My mom prays like every couple of seconds,
16 like little prayers, so --
17 Q. Okay. Now, you discussed the Bashir tape
18 with Attorney Larry Feldman, didn’t you.
19 A. I don’t remember what we discussed.
20 Q. Well, didn’t your family approach him and
21 talk about the Bashir tape.
22 A. All I remember -- we had a meeting that day.
23 I don’t remember. It was too long ago.
24 Q. Did you ever drink alcohol on a plane where
25 Michael Jackson was present.
26 A. I didn’t drink alcohol on a plane.
27 Q. Thank you.
28 Do you recall meeting with a psychologist 1005
 

 
1 named Stan Katz.
2 A. I remember meeting Mr. Katz.
3 Q. And you were referred to him by Attorney
4 Larry Feldman, right.
5 A. All I know is we went that day.
6 Q. And to your knowledge, Mr. Katz has a
7 business relationship with Attorney Larry Feldman,
8 right.
9 A. I don’t know.
10 Q. Okay. One final question: Have you told
11 the truth throughout your testimony.
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
14 THE COURT: Mr. Sneddon.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Be right there, Your Honor.
16 Just wanted to make arrangements to have the
17 next witness brought down, Your Honor.
18
19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. SNEDDON:
21 Q. All right. Miss Arvizo, first of all, I’d
22 like to direct your attention to the time that you
23 were in the car with Vinnie and your brother outside
24 The Laugh Factory. Okay.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. At some point in time you were given a
27 message by Vinnie and sent inside, correct.
28 A. Yes. 1006
 

 
1 Q. What was the message that he gave you to
2 give to your mother.
3 A. To tell my mom to hurry up, because we
4 needed to go.
5 Q. Is that what you did.
6 A. Yes, I went and got her. Or I went and told
7 her. She came out after me.
8 Q. After you gave the message, did you stick
9 around at all.
10 A. No, I went.
11 Q. Now, you told the jury that there was this
12 incident which led to your request to have your
13 mother call the police --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- involving you and your father.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What happened.
18 A. It was before school. I was walking to
19 McDonald’s to go get something to eat. And my
20 father was parked in the parking lot at McDonald’s
21 across from my high school, and he started waving at
22 me, and to -- going like this, to “come here.” And
23 I just kept trying to go and I didn’t want to, but I
24 was too scared of him. And I walked over, and he
25 told me to get in the car.
26 Q. So did you do that.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. What happened when you got in the car. 1007
 

 
1 A. He locked the doors, and then he was just
2 telling me, “What are you guys doing.” And he just
3 started being mean to me. And I just, “Yes, Daddy.
4 Yes, Daddy. I’m sorry, I’m sorry.”
5 Q. Did you try to leave. Did you tell him you
6 wanted to leave.
7 A. I told him I had to leave. It was already,
8 like, during my first period. I had to leave. And
9 he just wouldn’t let me go. He said, “No, I need to
10 talk to you,” and he would grab my arm, and I didn’t
11 know -- I was just really scared. I didn’t -- I
12 didn’t know what to do.
13 Q. It’s okay. It’s okay.
14 During the time that you were in the car
15 with your father and he wouldn’t let you go, did he
16 ever molest you at that time.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, you’ve heard Mr. Mesereau use the word
19 “terrorist threats.” Do you remember him saying
20 that.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you ever use those words to the police
23 officer.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you even know what that means.
26 A. All I know is the word “threats,” so I’m
27 just putting two and two together, like threatening
28 threats. I don’t know. 1008
 

 
1 Q. But you never used the word “terrorist”.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of
4 the jury there was a time when you attempted to talk
5 to Carol Lamir about your father’s abusive behavior
6 towards the family.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember that.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you indicated, I believe, that she
11 didn’t want to listen to it.
12 A. She didn’t want to listen to it. She always
13 seemed like she had kind of a -- I don’t know, a
14 crush on my father, because my father would go cook
15 for her and stuff.
16 Q. I just have a couple more questions.
17 Before your family went to Miami to be with
18 the defendant in this case, Mr. Jackson - okay. -
19 before that time, your brother Gavin had already
20 been in remission.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. For some time.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you ever hear your mother express
25 her belief as to who was responsible for that
26 remission.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Who. 1009
 

 
1 A. God. And only God.
2 Q. You never heard her mention Michael Jackson.
3 A. No.
4 Q. With regard to the -- going back to the
5 incident with your father in the car, okay.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. The one at school. I just -- my colleagues
8 want me to ask you a question, so I’ll do it.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. You said that you didn’t know the word
11 “terrorist,” but you knew the word “threats”.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you -- in your conversations with police
14 officers in describing what happened, did you use
15 the word “threats”.
16 A. No, I just told them what he had told me.
17 Q. And what did he tell you.
18 A. That we better not say anything about what
19 happened, because he could have us killed.
20 Q. Do you know what the term “false
21 imprisonment” means.
22 A. Not really.
23 Q. Did you describe to the police officers what
24 happened.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And what words did you use to describe what
27 happened with regard to your ability to leave the
28 car. 1010
 

 
1 A. I told him he locked it, and that anytime I
2 really tried to leave, he would grab my arm and tell
3 me “No.”
4 Q. Now, lastly, with regard to the questions
5 that you were asked by Mr. Mesereau, and you were
6 candid with the jury and told them that there were
7 statements that you made to the social workers which
8 were not true, do you recall that.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
11 MR. SNEDDON: Foundational, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 You may -- go ahead.
14 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: With regard to those
15 particular questions that you answered to Mr.
16 Mesereau that you had lied, why did you lie.
17 A. I don’t know. I just -- I kind of still
18 liked Mr. Jackson, and I didn’t want him to get in
19 trouble. And I know I was scared because the
20 bodyguard was there before. And just mixed
21 feelings. I didn’t know, really. I was just....
22 MR. SNEDDON: All right. I have nothing
23 further, Your Honor. Thank you.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Mesereau.
25 MR. MESEREAU: Just briefly.
26 //
27 //
28 // 1011
 

 
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. MESEREAU:
3 Q. Ms. Arvizo, when the three social workers
4 came to Jay Jackson’s house and interviewed you,
5 they were asking you questions about your mother,
6 correct.
7 A. No.
8 Q. They were investigating whether your mother
9 was fit, true.
10 A. I really don’t remember what they were
11 investigating. I didn’t know what they were
12 investigating.
13 Q. Well, it wasn’t really just Mr. Jackson that
14 they were asking questions about, right.
15 A. I don’t remember.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions,
17 Your Honor.
18 MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may
20 step down.
21 MR. SNEDDON: May I have just a moment, Your
22 Honor.
23 MR. MESEREAU: She’s subject to re-call,
24 Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Yes, I didn’t excuse her.
26 MR. MESEREAU: Oh. Thank you.
27 MR. SNEDDON: Call Star Arvizo.
28 THE COURT: He called him. 1012
 

 
1 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Oh, he did.
2 THE BAILIFF: You need to adjust this to
3 your height.
4 THE COURT: Remain standing, please. Face
5 the clerk and raise your right hand.
6
7 STAR DAVID ARVIZO
8 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
9
10 THE WITNESS: I do.
11 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
12 spell your name for the record.
13 THE WITNESS: My name is Star David Arvizo.
14 THE BAILIFF: Talk into the mike.
15 THE WITNESS: Oh, S-t-a-r, D-a-v-i-d,
16 A-r-v-i-z-o.
17 THE CLERK: Thank you.
18
19 DIRECT EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. SNEDDON:
21 Q. How old are you.
22 A. 14 years old.
23 Q. You nervous.
24 A. A little bit.
25 Q. What’s your birth date.
26 A. 12-11-90. December 11th.
27 Q. I’m sorry.
28 A. December 11th. 1013
 

 
1 Q. And what year in school are you right now.
2 A. Right now, in ninth grade.
3 Q. And do you have brothers and sisters.
4 A. Two -- oh, three, actually.
5 Q. All right. Why don’t you tell us their
6 names.
7 A. Jett Daniel Jackson. Davellin Arvizo. And
8 Gavin Anton Jackson, or Arvizo. God.
9 Q. Okay. And your mother’s name.
10 A. Janet Jackson.
11 Q. And the current husband of your mother.
12 A. Jay Daniel Jackson.
13 Q. And Mr. Jackson’s occupation.
14 A. Major -- he’s a United States Major in the
15 Army right now.
16 Q. And your grandparents, do you have
17 grandparents that are still alive --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- on your mother’s side of the family.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What are your grandparents’ names.
22 A. Maria Ventura and Jesus David Ventura.
23 Q. And your grandfather, what does he go by.
24 A. He goes by David Ventura.
25 Q. Do you know where they live.
26 A. They live in El Monte.
27 Q. And how long have they lived in El Monte.
28 A. 34 years. 1014
 

 
1 Q. Long time.
2 A. A long time, yeah.
3 Q. All right. Let’s talk a little bit about
4 your school career.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Where did you start.
7 A. Start --
8 Q. What’s the name of the school.
9 A. In Maxson Elementary.
10 Q. How is that spelled.
11 A. M-a-x-s-o-n.
12 Q. And how long were you there.
13 A. Four years.
14 Q. What grades would that have been, then.
15 A. Kindergarten through third.
16 Q. And then for the fourth grade, where did you
17 go.
18 A. Nueva Vista Elementary.
19 Q. And do you recall what town that was in.
20 A. The City of Bell.
21 Q. How about Maxson. Where was Maxson, what
22 city.
23 A. It was located in El Monte.
24 Q. And then how long were you at Nueva Vista.
25 A. Four through five.
26 Q. And then in the sixth grade, where did you
27 go.
28 A. I went through -- I mean, I went to LeConte 1015
 

 
1 Middle School.
2 THE REPORTER: LeConte.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Can you spell that.
5 A. C-o-n-t-e.
6 Q. And it would be L-a.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Or LeConte.
9 A. Oh, LeConte. L-e-C-o-n-t-e.
10 Q. And where was that school located.
11 A. It was located in Hollywood.
12 Q. And where were you living at this point in
13 your life.
14 A. In East L.A.
15 Q. Do you remember the name of the street.
16 A. Soto. Soto near Cesar Chavez, I think.
17 Q. So how did you get from your Soto Street
18 address in East L.A. to Hollywood to go to school
19 each day.
20 A. There was a school bus that picks us up
21 on Cesar Chavez and takes us all the way to our
22 middle school and then continued on to Hollywood
23 High.
24 Q. How many years did you go there.
25 A. To LeConte.
26 Q. Yes.
27 A. One year.
28 Q. And after that, where did you go to school. 1016
 

 
1 A. To another -- well, in seventh grade, we
2 went to middle school that was near our Soto
3 address. And -- for about three weeks. And then my
4 mom decided to put us in a better school, in John
5 Burroughs Middle School.
6 Q. So what was the name of the first school.
7 A. Hollenbeck Middle School.
8 Q. And then you went to John Burroughs.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was there a point in time -- where did you
11 go to the eighth grade.
12 A. I went to -- I went to John Burroughs for
13 seventh grade, through eighth. But then half of my
14 eighth grade, I continued on with independent
15 studies. Well, not after. A little bit towards the
16 end.
17 Q. What does “independent studies” mean.
18 A. It’s where you stay at home, and you get
19 your homework and everything. You go to a teacher
20 once a week, and he gives you your homework, and you
21 go home and do it.
22 Q. So you don’t really go to school.
23 A. No. No.
24 Q. But this year you’re in a regular school, a
25 freshman.
26 A. Yes. Yes.
27 Q. You’ve told the ladies and gentlemen of the
28 jury that you lived on Soto Street in East Los 1017
 

 
1 Angeles. Do you recall how long it was that you
2 remember living at Soto Street.
3 A. Probably about four years. I don’t remember
4 if it’s exact, but --
5 Q. Do you remember where you lived when you
6 were in kindergarten.
7 A. Well, actually, my parents and my brother
8 and my mom, they lived there for a year, because I
9 was living in my grandmother’s house, and I
10 continued going to Maxson Elementary.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. So it was probably -- yeah, it was probably
13 about four years. I don’t know. Probably four
14 years. Guessing.
15 Q. Describe to the ladies and gentlemen of the
16 jury this Soto Street address, as you recall it.
17 A. The address.
18 Q. Yeah. No, what was inside. What is the
19 room like.
20 A. It was really small. Probably -- it was a
21 bachelor apartment. It was really small.
22 Q. Did it have a separate bedroom.
23 A. Well, it was like a living room/bedroom.
24 Q. I’m sorry.
25 A. It was like a kitchen, like an area, and
26 then a little bathroom.
27 Q. So where did people sleep.
28 A. Big area. 1018
 

 
1 Q. All together.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The whole family.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How would you describe the -- just let us --
6 what was it like, the relationship between your
7 mother and your father during these times.
8 A. It wasn’t good.
9 Q. What do you mean by that.
10 A. Well, they’d always get in arguments, and it
11 would always lead to my father hitting my mom.
12 Q. Did he ever hit you.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you ever see him hit your brother and
15 sister.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was there a point in time when your dad
18 left.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember when that was in terms of
21 what grade you were in.
22 A. I was in sixth grade, and it was in the
23 morning.
24 Q. Do you remember the incident.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Were you in school that day.
27 A. It was a weekend.
28 Q. And when your father left, did he ever come 1019
 

 
1 back.
2 A. No, I never saw him again.
3 Q. Okay. Let me talk to you a little bit about
4 some of the things that you’ve done.
5 Have you ever been to a place called The
6 Laugh Factory.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you recall what the first occasion was
9 when you went to The Laugh Factory.
10 A. It was for a comedy camp.
11 Q. And do you remember approximately when that
12 was.
13 A. The year.
14 Q. Or just put it -- the year, if you can
15 remember, or between what grades it was.
16 A. It was between third and fourth, probably.
17 Because it was right before my brother was -- had
18 cancer.
19 Q. And was this during the school year or at
20 some other time.
21 A. It was during the summer.
22 Q. And who went to the camp.
23 A. Me and my brother and my sister.
24 Q. And how long did it last.
25 A. I don’t remember how exact, but it lasted
26 for probably about a month.
27 Q. And did you meet any people at the camp that
28 you ended up having -- becoming friends of the 1020
 

 
1 family.
2 A. George Lopez. Louise.
3 Q. Do you know Louise’s last name.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Jamie Masada. Can’t remember right now.
7 Q. Well, let me show you some photographs, if I
8 can. All right.
9 A. Okay.
10 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, you might have to
11 turn on the screen eventually. I just thought I’d
12 give you a heads up.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me. Have I seen
14 those.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Yes, they’re in evidence, all
16 three of them. I’ll identify them for the record.
17 But if you want to look at them again -- I’m sorry.
18 I should have showed you now.
19 Q. Just look at those for a second. I’ve shown
20 you an exhibit that’s in evidence marked as People’s
21 28, People’s 13, and People’s 49 that are in
22 evidence. Okay. Just hold those there for a
23 second.
24 All right. Go ahead and put 28 up there.
25 I want you to look at People’s 28, Star.
26 Okay. Do you have that in front of you.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you recognize the person in that 1021
 

 
1 photograph.
2 A. Yes. It’s Jamie Masada.
3 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Your Honor, do you have it
4 on “Input 3”.
5 THE COURT: We have “1” or “4.”
6 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Oh, “Input 1.”
7 THE COURT: It was on “1.” The PC.
8 MR. SNEDDON: “No signal.”
9 THE BAILIFF: Did you push the other thing.
10 MR. SNEDDON: There we go.
11 Q. All right. Now, People’s 28 you identified
12 as whom, Star.
13 A. Jamie Masada.
14 Q. All right. Now, if you put that aside for
15 just a second and go to the one that’s marked as
16 People’s 13.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Do you recognize the people depicted in that
19 photograph.
20 A. That’s my sister, me, my brother, and Fritz
21 Coleman.
22 Q. All right. You recognize the person named
23 Fritz Coleman.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where did you meet him.
26 A. At The Laugh Factory.
27 Q. And what was he doing there.
28 A. He was helping out the kids with their 1022
 

 
1 comedy act.
2 Q. And the people in that photograph, do you
3 recognize those people.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. A little different than what you look like
6 now, huh.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. All right. Put that aside, if you would.
9 And let’s look at the one that’s 49 that’s
10 in evidence, people’s 49, okay. Do you recognize
11 the people in that photograph.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who are those.
14 A. It’s me, my brother, my sister, and Louise.
15 Q. Okay. Do you know Louise’s last name.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you guys have a nickname for her.
18 A. Yeah, we called her Weezie.
19 Q. Weezie.
20 A. Yeah.
21 MR. SNEDDON: (To the reporter) I’m sorry,
22 you’re on your own in trying to spell it.
23 Q. Okay. And do you recall when this
24 photograph was taken.
25 A. Oh. Yes.
26 Q. When was it taken.
27 A. It was during the comedy camp.
28 Q. During the summer you went to comedy camp. 1023
 

 
1 A. Yeah. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Thank you.
3 Your Honor, we can turn the lights back on.
4 Thanks.
5 Okay. Just take those and turn them over
6 and set them up there on the counter, if you would.
7 Thanks.
8 Now, at some point in time, did your brother
9 Gavin -- did you learn that your brother Gavin had
10 come down with cancer.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember in terms of what year you
13 were in school, or what was going on at that
14 particular time in your life that you remember that
15 happening.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Tell the jury.
18 A. I was in fourth grade. My brother was --
19 well, he was moved up to fifth grade. So -- and
20 then he was diagnosed with cancer, so he had to
21 leave school.
22 And I continued on going to school through
23 the fifth grade. And then he went into remission
24 during sixth grade, when he was able to come back
25 with me during sixth grade.
26 Q. So you were in the same grades then.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Now, do you remember in terms of about what 1024
 

 
1 time of the school year it was that Gavin learned
2 that he had cancer.
3 A. The year.
4 Q. What time of the school year. Like
5 beginning, end, middle.
6 A. Probably middle. Yeah.
7 Q. Do you recall.
8 A. Huh. No, I don’t recall. I don’t know
9 exactly.
10 Q. Tell us in terms of your -- at the time that
11 Gavin learned that he had cancer, where was he
12 living at that time.
13 A. We were still living in East L.A.
14 Q. And the name of the street.
15 A. Soto.
16 Q. Okay. And then when Gavin -- did Gavin at
17 some point begin to go to the hospital.
18 A. What.
19 Q. Did -- did Gavin ever have to go to the
20 hospital.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Because of the cancer.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where was he living then.
25 A. Oh, he -- Louise gave my dad money so he
26 could fix, at my grandma’s house, a room for him.
27 Q. So he was at your grandma’s house.
28 A. Yes. 1025
 

 
1 Q. And in what town was that.
2 A. El Monte.
3 Q. Okay. Were there times that he was in the
4 hospital.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you present at any times when the
7 defendant in this case, Michael Jackson, called your
8 brother.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On how many occasions.
11 A. Twice.
12 Q. Where.
13 A. Well, two times that I know of, and -- in
14 the hospital room, and a couple times at my
15 grandma’s house in El Monte.
16 Q. So they were separate locations.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, at some point when your brother had
19 been diagnosed with cancer, were you -- did you and
20 your family go to Neverland Ranch.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall when it was the first time
23 that you went, like what time of the year it was.
24 A. Time of the year. What year it was.
25 Q. What time of the year. Were you in school.
26 Was it the summer.
27 A. I think we were during school.
28 Q. Was it the beginning of school or end of 1026
 

 
1 school; do you remember.
2 A. Middle of school.
3 Q. How old were you at this point.
4 A. Ten or 11. I was 11. I don’t remember.
5 Q. I’m sorry.
6 A. I don’t really remember how old I was.
7 Q. Do you remember what year it was that you
8 went.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was it during the time that your brother had
11 cancer.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. So what year was it your brother
14 got cancer.
15 A. 2000, 2001.
16 Q. So how old were you in 2000.
17 A. 12. Or 11. Oh, I was probably 11. It was
18 right before my birthday.
19 Q. I couldn’t hear what you said.
20 A. It was before my birthday.
21 Q. So it was before your birthday that year.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who went to the ranch the first time.
24 A. My mom, my dad, me, my brother and my
25 sister.
26 Q. How did you get there.
27 A. Limousine.
28 Q. And do you remember about what time it was 1027
 

 
1 when you arrived at the ranch.
2 A. Daytime.
3 Q. What happened when you got there.
4 A. Got there; they had -- my mom and my dad
5 signed papers, and then we went into the ranch and
6 there’s cooks and, like, maids, people standing
7 outside the door.
8 Q. Okay. You need to talk into that microphone
9 so people can hear you. Okay.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Standing outside the door where. What door.
12 A. The front door.
13 Q. To what.
14 A. To the main house.
15 Q. All right. After you -- after you got
16 there, you were greeted by these folks. What
17 happened next. What was the next thing you recall
18 happening.
19 A. I remember just me and my brother and my dad
20 were in the kitchen -- well, yeah, in the kitchen.
21 Or near the kitchen. We weren’t inside the kitchen.
22 Q. All right. What were you doing in there.
23 A. We were waiting for Michael.
24 Q. And did Mr. Jackson come down at some point.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Do you recall when that was.
27 A. Uhh --
28 Q. How long had you been there before Mr. 1028
 

 
1 Jackson came down.
2 A. 30 minutes.
3 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember seeing
4 Mr. Jackson on that occasion.
5 A. After.
6 Q. No, when he came down. The first time you
7 ever met him. Was that the first time.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what was he dressed like.
10 A. He had a red shirt on with black pants, and
11 tape over his nose.
12 Q. And what.
13 A. And tape over his nose.
14 Q. After this greeting, where did you guys go.
15 What did you do. Did you talk to Mr. Jackson for a
16 while.
17 A. He said we were going to drive some cars.
18 Q. Did you do that.
19 A. Yes. We drove some golf carts.
20 Q. And you say “we.” Who is “we”.
21 A. My brother and me.
22 Q. And who else.
23 A. Michael and Frank.
24 Q. Frank who.
25 A. Tyson.
26 Q. Had you ever met Mr. Tyson prior to that
27 time.
28 A. No. 1029
 

 
1 Q. So the four of you went somewhere on the
2 ranch; is that correct.
3 A. We went around the ranch.
4 Q. And what are these carts like that you
5 drove.
6 A. They’re like golf carts.
7 Q. And how many carts were being driven by the
8 four of you. Four carts.
9 A. No, it was two carts.
10 Q. Two carts.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who was in the carts, the two carts.
13 A. Me and Michael were in one car, and my
14 brother and Frank were in another car.
15 Q. So where did you go.
16 A. We went around the ranch.
17 Q. In the carts.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How long were you out there.
20 A. 20 minutes. Ten minutes.
21 Q. Now, when you came back, do you recall what
22 happened, what you did after that; after you came
23 back from driving around with Mr. Jackson and
24 Mr. Tyson and your brother.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Where did you sleep that night.
27 A. In the guest units.
28 Q. And do you recall where your mother and 1030
 

 
1 father slept that night.
2 A. I think my sister and my mom slept together.
3 And my dad, me and my brother slept in another room.
4 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed there on
5 that first visit.
6 A. I think it was two days.
7 Q. Now, do you remember an incident occurring
8 between your mother and your father on this
9 particular visit.
10 A. Yeah, it was the next day.
11 Q. The next what.
12 A. It was the next day. Me and my brother were
13 trying to get up so we could go outside, and my dad
14 wouldn’t let us go outside because he wanted to
15 sleep in.
16 And so eventually, like about 12 o’clock, we
17 went outside and we got breakfast. And my brother
18 was like messing around on the ranch somewhere. And
19 I came back and went into my mom’s unit, and my dad
20 was sitting down in the chair. And he was yelling
21 at my mom, and she was trying to put on her makeup.
22 And he -- he got up and he grabbed the club soda
23 that was on the dresser and threw it at my mom’s
24 face.
25 Q. What did you do.
26 A. Tried to comfort her. I walked over and I
27 hugged her, and I said “I love you” to her. She
28 told me to go out and play. 1031
 

 
1 Q. She did what.
2 A. She told me to go outside and play.
3 Q. Did you do that.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did you do.
6 A. I don’t know. I just probably went outside
7 and drove a golf cart.
8 Q. Do you recall the first time that you went
9 to Mr. Jackson’s bedroom.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When was that.
12 A. That was probably the second visit.
13 Q. And do you recall about what time it was
14 when you went to his bedroom.
15 A. Nighttime.
16 Q. Tell us how you -- how you got into the
17 bedroom. Tell us the way it is that you get into
18 Mr. Jackson’s bedroom.
19 A. First you walk through a hallway, and then
20 you come through a door, and then you continue
21 walking. You go through another door and you walk
22 up the stairs.
23 Q. Are there any kinds of alarms or bells or
24 anything that goes off.
25 A. Yes. There’s like a bell that goes off,
26 and -- while you’re walking through the hallway.
27 And then there’s a key pad to the first door.
28 Q. All right. Did you at some point in time 1032
 

 
1 learn the code to that key pad.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how did you acquire that information.
4 In other words, who gave it to you.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; assumes facts not
6 in evidence. Move to strike.
7 THE COURT: Sustained. You have a compound
8 question.
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: At some point in time you
10 had obtained the code to that key pad.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who gave you the codes.
13 A. Michael.
14 Q. Were there more than one code.
15 A. Yes. There was the door code and the master
16 code to all the doors.
17 Q. And which one did Mr. Jackson give you.
18 A. The 1960 one.
19 Q. I’m sorry.
20 A. The -- it was the one code that could get
21 into his bedroom.
22 Q. And do you remember the numbers.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What were they.
25 A. 1960.
26 Q. And those are the ones Mr. Jackson gave you.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Now. Were there another set of numbers. 1033
 

 
1 A. Yes, it was another code that was 1849 that
2 got you in every door.
3 Q. And where did you get that code from.
4 A. I got it from the security guard.
5 Q. Do you remember the security guard’s name.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you remember what he looks like.
8 A. He was -- he was white, but I don’t exactly
9 remember his face.
10 Q. I couldn’t hear what you said.
11 A. I don’t remember his face.
12 Q. Okay. And do you remember when it was that
13 you got that code from the security -- let me ask it
14 this way: At some point in time you went to Miami,
15 correct.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then after Miami, you came back to the
18 ranch.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, with regard to the code number that Mr.
21 Jackson gave you - all right. --
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. -- when did you get that code number from
24 him. Before or after you went to Miami.
25 A. After.
26 Q. And with regard to the code number that you
27 got from the security guard, was it before or after
28 you went to Miami. 1034
 

 
1 A. After.
2 Q. I’m sorry.
3 A. After.
4 Q. So on the first occasion that you went to
5 Mr. Jackson’s room, you did not have a code number.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Who all went to the room when you went to
8 the room.
9 A. First occasion.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Frank, Michael, me and my brother.
12 Q. And where did you go in the room.
13 A. First we sat down and talked, and then we
14 went on a kitchen raid.
15 Q. You say you sat down and talked. Where did
16 you sit down and talk.
17 A. In the living room. Well, where the --
18 downstairs.
19 Q. Okay. Downstairs in the house.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where in the house.
22 A. In his bedroom area downstairs.
23 Q. So you were in there talking.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who was present.
26 A. Frank, Michael, me and my brother.
27 Q. And do you recall how long you were there
28 before you went to somewhere else. 1035
 

 
1 A. Not really.
2 Q. So you told the jury you went somewhere
3 else. Where did you go, and what was the purpose
4 for going there.
5 A. We went to -- on a kitchen raid.
6 Q. What do you mean by “a kitchen raid”.
7 A. We went to go get some food.
8 Q. And whose idea was that.
9 A. Michael’s.
10 Q. And what was it you were going to get.
11 A. Food. And my brother suggested that he
12 wanted some s’mores.
13 Q. Some s’mores.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What happened when you went to the kitchen.
16 What did you do.
17 A. We got some food.
18 Q. Who actually went to the kitchen.
19 A. Me, Frank, Michael, and my brother.
20 Q. Okay. Tell us what happened in the kitchen.
21 A. My brother wanted to make s’mores, so
22 Michael called the security guard and got some
23 Hershey chocolates and then we all went back to the
24 bedroom.
25 Q. By the way, you’ve said “Michael” this, and
26 “Michael” that. Do you recognize the defendant in
27 this case.
28 A. Yes. 1036
 

 
1 Q. That’s the “Michael” you’re talking about.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. You’re back in the bedroom.
4 Who’s back in the bedroom now, and where are you in
5 the bedroom.
6 A. Right now we’re still downstairs. Me and my
7 brother are starting to make the s’mores. And then
8 Michael says that he’s going to go to sleep.
9 Q. So does he then leave you.
10 A. Yes. But then we didn’t want to make them
11 anymore, so we just went upstairs then.
12 Q. So you’re in the downstairs area of his
13 bedroom, and you said -- where did you go then.
14 A. We went upstairs.
15 Q. How do you get there.
16 A. You go in through a door, and then you go
17 upstairs.
18 Q. Now, when you went into the bedroom area,
19 who all was there.
20 A. Frank, Michael, me and my brother.
21 Q. Anybody else.
22 A. Oh, Prince and Paris were there also.
23 Q. Now, when did Prince and Paris come into the
24 picture.
25 A. They were also there. They were also with
26 us on the kitchen raid, when we went to go get food.
27 Q. Now, when you got upstairs and you’re in the
28 room, what happened then. 1037
 

 
1 A. They were asleep on the bed, and Frank had a
2 computer. It was a computer that Michael gave him
3 the first time.
4 Q. Gave who.
5 A. Gave Gavin.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. And this time it already had Internet
8 access, so Frank did something and the Internet was
9 on, and we started going on sites.
10 Q. Going on sites.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What kind of sides.
13 A. Pornography sites.
14 Q. And where was Mr. Jackson during this time.
15 A. He was sitting right next to us.
16 Q. Where were you seated.
17 A. On the bed.
18 Q. And where was Mr. Tyson.
19 A. Typing.
20 Q. Typing. Where was he located in the room.
21 A. Right off the bed and kneeled against the
22 bed and --
23 Q. Could you see the screen.
24 A. Yes.
25 THE BAILIFF: You can pull it down a little.
26 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Now, do you recall whose
27 idea it was to go on the Internet.
28 A. Michael’s. 1038
 

 
1 Q. Do you recall what he said.
2 A. No. But while we were on one of those
3 sites, a lady had her shirt up, and Michael said,
4 “Got milk”.
5 Q. Do you remember that.
6 A. Yeah. And then he leaned over to Prince and
7 says, “You’re missing some p-u-s-s-y,” but he said
8 it, in his ear, but Prince was still asleep.
9 Q. How many sites do you feel that you went to
10 that night.
11 A. I don’t really remember, but probably, say,
12 five or six.
13 Q. And what did the sites have. You don’t need
14 to go into all the details, but generally what was
15 the common denominator.
16 A. Females.
17 Q. Huh.
18 A. Females.
19 Q. And can you tell us whether or not they had
20 clothes on.
21 A. They didn’t have clothes on.
22 Q. Females only.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where did you sleep that night.
25 A. Michael’s bed.
26 Q. And where did your brother sleep that night.
27 A. Right next to me.
28 Q. And Mr. Jackson, where did Mr. Jackson 1039
 

 
1 sleep.
2 A. He slept on the foot of the bed on the
3 floor.
4 Q. And Mr. Tyson.
5 A. To the right of the bed on the floor.
6 Q. And Prince and Paris, did they --
7 A. They -- I think they slept on the bed with
8 us.
9 Q. Do you remember what you did after -- let me
10 ask you this: How long do you think you were
11 watching these --
12 A. Sites.
13 Q. -- sites that you went to.
14 A. 15, ten minutes. Ten minutes.
15 Q. And then where -- what did you guys do.
16 A. We -- after all that, we started watching
17 some Simpsons videos.
18 Q. Okay. Then what.
19 A. And then Michael told us not to tell no one
20 what we did.
21 Q. I’m sorry.
22 A. He told us not to tell our parents what we
23 did.
24 Q. Who said that.
25 A. Michael.
26 Q. All right. I have some more photographs I
27 want to show you.
28 A. All right. 1040
 

 
1 Q. Okay. Star, I’m going to ask you some --
2 no, you need it; I don’t. I’m asking some questions
3 about the photographs I put in front of you.
4 And for the record, Your Honor, I’ve shown
5 them to counsel for his examination.
6 All right. The first one you have in front
7 of you is marked as People’s 188 for identification.
8 Do you recognize what’s depicted in that photograph.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that an accurate picture of what’s in
11 there, of what it shows.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Just turn it over. Set it right over there.
14 That’s it. Good.
15 Now, the next one is, I’m sorry, 50,
16 People’s 50 for identification. Do you recognize
17 that.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And is that an accurate representation of
20 what it depicts.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Turn it over. I’m going to ask
23 you some questions about these, but I just want to
24 lay the foundation first.
25 All right. With regard to 52 for
26 identification, do you recognize that.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of what it 1041
 

 
1 represents.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Turn that over, if you would.
4 And we’ll move on to the next one, which is
5 People’s 53. Do you recognize that.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of what it
8 represents.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Flip it over, if you would.
11 And People’s 54, do you recognize that.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of what it
14 represents, or purports to represent.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Now, the next photograph is one that
17 is actually in evidence, and so you can just turn
18 that over. I’ll ask you questions about that later.
19 And the next one is 196 for identification
20 purposes. Do you recognize the people in that
21 photograph.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of what
24 those people looked like at the time that it was
25 taken.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. All right. Turn that over.
28 And the next photograph is 110. And is that 1042
 

 
1 an accurate depiction of what it represents.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And with regard to 111, is that an accurate
4 depiction.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Your Honor, I’d move that those photographs
8 be admitted into evidence.
9 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
10 THE COURT: They’re admitted.
11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Now, Gavin,
12 just -- Star, just flip those over and I’m going to
13 ask you some questions about those photographs, if
14 we can. Okay.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. You can flip them back over so you’re
17 looking at them, so they’re in the same order.
18 Could I have just a second, Your Honor.
19 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
20 table.)
21 Q. Now, the first photograph that you have is a
22 photograph that’s on the board.
23 Ron, could you give me that, please. The
24 black case. Thank you.
25 It’s on the board. Do you recognize the
26 photograph that’s in evidence as People’s 188.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. All right. Would you tell the ladies and 1043
 

 
1 gentlemen of the jury what that is.
2 A. That’s the front view of the main house.
3 Q. “Of the main house.” Of whose house.
4 A. Michael’s house. It’s the front door.
5 Q. All right. Now, do you want to turn that
6 over.
7 And we’ll pick up the next photograph, which
8 is the one that’s marked as People’s 50.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Do you have People’s 50 there.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recognize the photograph that’s
13 depicted on the board behind you. Take a look at
14 it, and make sure they’re the same.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. They are. Okay.
17 And what is that. Tell the ladies and
18 gentlemen of the jury what that is.
19 A. That’s the hallway leading to Michael’s
20 bedroom.
21 Q. Now, this particular door that leads to the
22 hallway, does that door have a key pad on it.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Is there another way in to Mr. Jackson’s
25 hallway that leads to his bedroom, other than this
26 door.
27 A. Through the library.
28 Q. And do you see the door in this photograph 1044
 

 
1 that you can use to get into that hallway from the
2 library.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. I’m going to give you this
5 marker.
6 Now, would you show the ladies and gentlemen
7 of the jury on the photograph behind you where that
8 other door is that you can access that hallway.
9 So you’re talking about the one that’s just
10 above the duck.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And about in the middle of the photograph.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Put that down.
15 Now, with regard to getting into the hallway
16 from the library, do you need a code of any kind to
17 get in from there.
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right. Now, let’s go to the next
20 photograph, which is People’s 52 in evidence. Do
21 you recognize that photograph.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
24 what 52 is.
25 A. It’s the hallway leading to Michael’s
26 bedroom.
27 Q. And can you use the little -- yeah, the
28 black thing. I know there’s a name for those 1045
 

 
1 things, it just escapes me.
2 A. A laser.
3 Q. What.
4 A. It’s a laser.
5 Q. Can you use the laser pencil for us and show
6 us the view where Mr. Jackson’s -- the entrance to
7 his bedroom.
8 So straight in the middle of the photograph
9 towards the rear.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Now, let’s turn to the next
12 photograph, which is 53; is that correct.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Now, what’s 53.
15 A. It’s just a closer view of Michael’s -- oh,
16 it’s just a view of the doors.
17 Q. Now, on this particular photograph, would
18 you use the laser for us again, please, and tell us
19 where the key pad is.
20 A. Right there. It’s behind all this stuff.
21 Q. Okay. Lean in -- turn around and lean into
22 the microphone.
23 A. It’s behind all this stuff.
24 Q. All right. So you’re indicating behind the
25 machine that says “Wild Water”.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. It’s behind there.
28 A. Yes. 1046
 

 
1 Q. Now, with regard to the photograph that you
2 have on the board right now, do you see that on the
3 far right-hand side of the photograph.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you recognize that thing that’s depicted
6 there.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What is that.
9 A. That’s like detectors.
10 Q. What.
11 A. Something like -- I don’t know what they’re
12 called, but --
13 Q. During the time that you were at -- staying
14 at the ranch, did those -- did that -- did that
15 work.
16 A. I don’t know.
17 Q. Were there any other things that, while you
18 were visiting the ranch, that, when you went to a
19 certain point, gave off noise.
20 A. Oh, it was like a sensor. Like once you
21 reached like the middle of the hallway, it was
22 like -- it was like a ring.
23 Q. What kind of a ring.
24 A. Like “ding.” I don’t know. It was like a
25 ring. It wasn’t like a constant ring. It was like
26 on and off for a little while.
27 Q. Okay.
28 Q. How long. 1047
 

 
1 A. Five seconds.
2 Q. All right. Let’s go to the last photograph,
3 if we can.
4 A. Do you mean this one.
5 Q. And what’s that, 54.
6 A. 54, oh. That’s the view entrance of
7 Michael’s bedroom.
8 Q. All right. Now, you can put that one down.
9 And the next photograph I’m going to have
10 you look at is People’s 20 in evidence. Do you
11 recognize that person.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who is that.
14 A. It’s Frank Tyson.
15 Q. Now, did you ever know Mr. Tyson by any
16 other name than “Tyson”.
17 A. No. No.
18 Q. All right. Why don’t you put that
19 photograph down.
20 Now, when you told the ladies and gentlemen
21 of the jury that you were there on that first
22 occasion that you went into Michael’s bedroom, is
23 this the person you were referring to.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. Let’s go to 196. Do you
26 recognize that photograph.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you recognize where it was taken. 1048
 

 
1 A. It was in Neverland.
2 Q. And do you recognize the people in the
3 photograph.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And who are the people in the photograph.
6 A. Michael, my brother and me. Michael, my
7 brother and me.
8 Q. I’m sorry, I didn’t hear the last part.
9 Now, is that the way your brother looked
10 back at that point in time.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was that a wheelchair that you got at the
13 ranch or was that one that your family had for
14 Gavin.
15 A. That was at the ranch.
16 Q. All right. And then there are two last
17 photographs. But before we go, do you recall
18 approximately when it was that that photograph,
19 People’s 196, was taken.
20 A. What year.
21 Q. If you can.
22 A. I don’t know. It was the time between when
23 he had cancer. When he had cancer.
24 Q. It was obviously during one of your visits.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Do you recall whether it was the first visit
27 or some visit after that.
28 A. It was some visit after that. 1049
 

 
1 Q. Why do you think that.
2 A. It wasn’t the first visit.
3 Q. I didn’t hear you.
4 A. It wasn’t the first visit.
5 Q. And why do you know that.
6 A. Because we didn’t do that the first visit.
7 Q. So it’s sometime after that.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember how long after that.
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. Let’s go to the photograph 110.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Do you see -- do you see the photograph 110.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. You’ve told us about riding
16 around in some carts.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, tell us about this photograph.
19 A. That’s Michael’s Bentley. And that’s -- the
20 light blue car is Marie Nicole’s car.
21 Q. Which one are you referring to.
22 A. This one. This one.
23 Q. How do you know it’s Marie Nicole’s car.
24 A. It had “Marie Nicole” on the hood.
25 Q. All right. How many such cars like that did
26 you see on the ranch. “Cars.” Carts.
27 A. Probably, like, ten of them.
28 Q. All right. Let’s go to People’s 111. 1050
 

 
1 Do you recognize that photograph.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell us about it.
4 A. That’s the Spiderman cart, and that’s Marie
5 Nicole’s car. And --
6 Q. Where is the Spiderman’s cart.
7 A. Right there.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. And that’s the video library.
10 Q. By that, do you mean -- you pointed to the
11 roof up by a place where there’s a window about the
12 middle of the roof and to the far left of the
13 photograph.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you’ve been in the video library.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How many times do you think you’ve been in
18 the video library.
19 A. A lot of times.
20 Q. Yeah. Why don’t you go ahead and put those
21 up there, and we’ll turn the lights back on.
22 After the time that you were at the ranch,
23 and it was the night, the first -- the first night
24 that you spent in Mr. Jackson’s bedroom --
25 A. Uh-huh.
26 Q. -- okay. - did you go back to the ranch on
27 other occasions during the time that Gavin had
28 cancer. 1051
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how many times do you think you went.
3 A. I don’t know exact.
4 Q. Did your mother ever go with you.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Who went.
7 A. Just my brother, me, and my dad. But
8 sometimes it was just mostly my brother and my dad.
9 Q. So there were times that you didn’t even go,
10 but just your father and Gavin went.
11 A. No.
12 Q. What.
13 A. No. Wait.
14 Q. Okay. Yeah, you -- I might have
15 misunderstood you. It’s my fault. So let’s just go
16 back. I asked you if there were times that your
17 mother went with you and your father, other than the
18 times you’ve told us about. Okay.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Were there any other times your mother went.
21 A. No. Except after the Miami trip. Then she
22 came.
23 Q. Okay. So up to the Miami trip.
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Now, were there times that you went back
26 with your father.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And who else went with you. 1052
 

 
1 A. My brother.
2 Q. Did your sister go.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, were there times that Gavin and your
5 father would go, but you wouldn’t go.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The times that you went to the ranch after
8 the time that you were in Michael Jackson’s bedroom
9 and spent the night - okay. --
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. -- from those times that you went with your
12 father, when you went, was Mr. Jackson there.
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. Do you remember the first time that you went
15 back to the ranch after your dad left the family.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When was that.
18 A. That was when we were heading to the ranch,
19 just me, my brother and my sister by ourselves.
20 Q. And did you go with somebody.
21 A. Me, my brother and my sister.
22 Q. Okay. Anybody else.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever go to the ranch with Chris
25 Tucker.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Why. What were the occasions.
28 A. I don’t know. He just wanted to go to the 1053
 

 
1 ranch.
2 Q. How many times did you go with him.
3 A. Four times.
4 Q. All right. Tell us about the first time.
5 Or tell us about -- anything about those times stand
6 out.
7 A. There’s one time we went to go celebrate his
8 son’s birthday, and we just ended up staying there
9 for about a week with Chris.
10 Q. Mr. Tucker was there the whole time.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And where did you stay during the times you
13 were there with Mr. Tucker.
14 A. Guest units. And then the last night we
15 stood in a teepee.
16 Q. Was Mr. Jackson there on any of those
17 occasions.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Who stayed in the teepee.
20 A. There was a lot of people. There was Chris,
21 me, my brother, my sister. Wait. I don’t think my
22 sister was there. I don’t know. But --
23 Q. I couldn’t hear what you said.
24 A. I don’t know if my sister was there. She
25 was probably there. But it was a female. There was
26 a kid named Adrian. There was another person there
27 also. I don’t remember their names.
28 Q. Do you recognize the name Martin Bashir. 1054
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how do you recognize it.
3 A. He was the person that did the taping of
4 “Living with Michael Jackson.”
5 Q. How do you know that.
6 A. Because we were introduced to him.
7 Q. Where were you introduced to him.
8 A. At the ranch.
9 Q. Do you remember about when that was.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was it before or after the time that you’d
12 gone to the ranch with Mr. Tucker and his children,
13 or child.
14 A. It was after.
15 Q. And do you recall, was it during the time
16 that you were in school or was it during the summer.
17 A. School.
18 Q. And who all went to the ranch on this time,
19 on this occasion.
20 A. It was only me, my brother and my sister.
21 We went up there by ourselves.
22 Q. And how did you get there.
23 A. By limo.
24 Q. And where were you picked up.
25 A. The -- the East L.A. apartment on Soto.
26 Q. And do you remember what time of the day or
27 night it was that you got there, in terms of was it
28 daylight, was it dark, was it in the morning; do you 1055
 

 
1 recall.
2 A. It was probably in the morning. Somewhere
3 around there.
4 Q. I’m sorry.
5 A. It was probably in the morning.
6 Q. Now, do you remember when you got there,
7 what -- what you did. Where did you go when you got
8 out of the limo.
9 A. We entered through the back of the main
10 house, and Michael took my brother aside.
11 Q. Now, when you say you entered through the
12 back, the photograph that we saw just a few moments
13 ago, the photograph 188 in evidence, the People’s
14 exhibit, does that show the entrance you went into.
15 A. No. That’s the front entrance.
16 Q. So if I were standing in the front of the
17 house, if I were a juror in this case standing in
18 the front of the house, where would I have to go to
19 get into the entrance that you went into the day of
20 the Bashir incident.
21 A. You would have to walk around the house to
22 the left, and there’s a door back there, if you walk
23 around the house.
24 Q. Lean into the mike, please.
25 A. You have to walk around the house to the
26 left.
27 Q. All right. When you walk in the door, what
28 room are you in in the house. 1056
 

 
1 A. Through the back exit.
2 Q. Yes, the one you came in.
3 A. You’re looking at the -- the workers’ lounge
4 or something.
5 Q. Okay. And then where -- where does that
6 lead to.
7 A. It leads to the kitchen, to the dining area.
8 To everywhere.
9 Q. So where was it that you saw your brother
10 Gavin go with Mr. Jackson.
11 A. He told us, me and my sister, to wait right
12 there, and so we did. And he took my brother off to
13 the dining area.
14 Q. Did you lose sight of your brother.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, how long was your brother gone; do you
17 recall. Just approximately.
18 A. 20 minutes. 20 minutes.
19 Q. And when he came back, what happened.
20 A. They sat down and --
21 Q. Who sat down.
22 A. Michael and my brother.
23 Q. And where did they sit down.
24 A. On the couch that was near the kitchen.
25 Q. Were you at any time ever introduced to
26 Mr. Bashir that day.
27 A. I think it was probably before the taping.
28 Q. So -- you say “before the taping.” When did 1057
 

 
1 that occur.
2 A. What.
3 Q. What was going on at the time that you were
4 introduced by Mr. Bashir. Who introduced you.
5 A. Michael.
6 Q. Now, did you have an understanding -- did
7 you personally have an understanding that you were
8 going to appear on film that day.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you eventually appear on film that day.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what were you doing on film.
13 A. We were showing Michael one of our military
14 cadences that we learned from a program, military
15 program.
16 Q. What military program.
17 A. At that time we were in the NLCC. Stood for
18 Naval League Cadet Corps. That’s what it -- it was
19 a Navy program.
20 Q. And do you remember when you joined that
21 program.
22 A. I was 11.
23 Q. Before the Bashir -- I mean in relation to
24 the Bashir --
25 A. It was before.
26 Q. Are you still in that program.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Are you in another program. 1058
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What’s that.
3 A. It’s Infantry Explorers.
4 Q. And what service is that connected with.
5 A. Army.
6 Q. And how long have you been in that program.
7 A. It’s going on four months. We barely
8 joined.
9 Q. I’m sorry.
10 A. We barely joined four months ago.
11 Q. Were you ever in a Navy program.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was that.
14 A. That was the Naval Sea Cadets. It was an
15 older program. It’s for older kids. It’s from 13
16 to 17.
17 Q. And how long were you in that.
18 A. About a year.
19 Q. Now, at the time that you were there with
20 the -- Mr. Jackson and your brother and your sister
21 and Mr. Bashir, were you told before you got there
22 why you were going to the ranch.
23 A. No.
24 Q. You personally were never told.
25 A. No, I was never told.
26 Q. Now, after the -- were you present during
27 the time that your brother appeared with Mr. Jackson
28 on that film. 1059
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you watch it.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you watch it get filmed.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. After the filming was done, they came back
7 and filmed you folks in the kitchen there.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. With Mr. Jackson.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. After that was done, did you see where
12 Mr. Jackson went.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you see him any more during the visit.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did Mr. Jackson at any time tell you where
17 he was going.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you -- did you stay at the ranch, or did
20 you leave.
21 A. We stood.
22 Q. The night.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, at some point in time, you’ve told us
25 that you went to Miami.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Now, between the time that you had gone to
28 the ranch and been with Mr. Jackson and your brother 1060
 

 
1 Gavin when they -- the Martin Bashir filming took
2 place - okay. --
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. -- between that time and the time you left
5 for Miami, did you personally have any contact with
6 Mr. Jackson.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you go to the ranch on any occasions
9 between those two periods of time, the time of the
10 Bashir filming and the time you left for Miami.
11 A. No.
12 Q. To your knowledge, did anybody from your
13 family go to the ranch during that period of time.
14 A. No.
15 Q. To your knowledge, did anybody have any
16 contact with Mr. Jackson during that period of time.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Without telling me what was said, when was
19 it that you first learned -- from whom did you first
20 learn you were going to Miami.
21 A. My brother.
22 Q. And were you present during a time where a
23 telephone call occurred between your brother and
24 Mr. Jackson.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Where were you and your brother at that
27 point in time.
28 A. We were barely waking up to go to school. 1061
 

 
1 Q. Very literal. All right. You’re barely
2 waking up.
3 So what house -- what location were you at.
4 A. Oh. We were at the St. Andrews apartment.
5 Q. Whose apartment is that.
6 A. It’s Jay’s apartment.
7 Q. Major Jackson.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And was your mother there at that time.
10 A. Yes, she was.
11 Q. And how about Mr. Jackson, was he -- I know
12 that’s his apartment. But at the time that your
13 brother was on the phone, was Mr. Jackson there.
14 A. No, he was at work.
15 Q. Now, were you present during the -- not a
16 part of it, but were you present when your brother
17 was on the phone.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did your mother participate in that
20 conversation, as you recall.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At the end of that conversation, were you
23 told to do something.
24 A. Pack my bags.
25 Q. Who told you that.
26 A. My brother.
27 Q. Did you do that.
28 A. Yes. 1062
 

 
1 Q. So you didn’t go to school that day.
2 A. No. No.
3 Q. Were you told how you were going to get to
4 Miami.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How.
7 A. We were going to go by a commercial airline.
8 Q. Did you go to Miami by commercial airline.
9 A. No.
10 Q. What form of transportation did you take to
11 get to Miami.
12 A. We went with Chris Tucker on his private
13 jet, or lear jet.
14 Q. So how was it that you hooked up with
15 Mr. Tucker that day to go on this flight to Miami.
16 A. What do you mean.
17 Q. How did you get from your apartment at St.
18 Andrews, or Mr. Jackson’s.
19 A. Someone dropped us off there.
20 Q. Dropped you off where.
21 A. At the airport, where we met. Wait. I
22 don’t remember. But I know that someone picked us
23 up. Either drove us to his house or to the airport.
24 Q. Okay. You say “his house.” Who do you mean
25 by “his house”.
26 A. Chris Tucker’s house.
27 Q. So you don’t remember whether you went there
28 or the airport, but that’s where the plane was. 1063
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who was on the plane.
3 A. Me, my brother, my sister, my mom, and
4 Chris. And there was another guy, but I don’t
5 remember his name.
6 Q. Now, Chris Tucker --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- had you known Mr. Tucker prior to this --
9 prior to going to Miami.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you remember how it was that you met
12 Mr. Tucker.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell the jury how you met Mr. Tucker.
15 A. I met him through The Laugh Factory
16 comedy -- it was after the comedy camp.
17 Q. Okay. After the comedy camp.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was the -- how did you meet him. How
20 did that come about.
21 A. He was there one day, and my brother wanted
22 to go see the show. And so my brother met Chris
23 Tucker.
24 Q. Did you sort of become friends with
25 Mr. Tucker.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Did you go places with Mr. Tucker.
28 A. Yes. 1064
 

 
1 Q. Where are some of the places you went with
2 him.
3 A. Nickelodeon Kids Awards. And to his house.
4 To Oakland to see a Raiders game. And other places.
5 I don’t --
6 Q. Were you ever present during a situation
7 where your brother met Kobe Bryant.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where did that occur.
10 A. Oh, and Chris also took us to a Lakers game.
11 Q. Okay. Let’s talk about the first one. You
12 were present on that -- at the time that happened.
13 A. I wasn’t, no. I wasn’t present when he went
14 into the locker room.
15 Q. You’re talking about the Laker game now.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. What about the first time.
18 A. Oh, yeah, I was present. He was at The
19 Laugh Factory.
20 Q. And was Chris Tucker involved in that, too.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the second occasion was at a Laker game.
23 A. Yes. The first occasion was at the Laker
24 game. The second occasion was at The Laugh Factory.
25 Q. Oh, okay. Now, at the Laker game, was your
26 brother -- other than going to the locker room, was
27 there some other form of unusual thing that occurred
28 that evening. 1065
 

 
1 A. He was shown on the big screen, or shown on
2 the big screen.
3 Q. So your brother’s picture was shown on the
4 big screen.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At the Laker game.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Let’s talk a little bit about
9 the trip to Miami. You’re on the plane. Do you
10 remember how long it took you to get there.
11 A. Five hours or so. Yeah, five hours.
12 Q. And where did you land.
13 A. At an airport.
14 Q. Good answer. Stupid question, but good
15 answer.
16 When you got to the airport and the plane
17 landed, where did you go from there and how did you
18 get there.
19 A. We were going to the Turnberry Resort. And
20 we -- we left by limousine.
21 Q. And was it -- was it daytime or nighttime at
22 the time, if you remember.
23 A. It was nighttime.
24 Q. Do you remember about what time it was.
25 A. It was really late.
26 Q. So when you got to the Turnberry, do you
27 remember the first thing you did.
28 A. We went to Chris Tucker’s room. 1066
 

 
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. And then we went to our room.
3 Q. When you say “we went to our room,” who went
4 to the room that you call “our room”.
5 A. My mom, my brother and my sister and me.
6 Q. So you were all in one room.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, when you got to your room after
9 visiting with Mr. Tucker, what did you do.
10 A. We went to sleep.
11 Q. All right. The next day when you woke up,
12 do you remember about what time it was when you woke
13 up.
14 A. It was really late. It was probably around
15 2:00.
16 Q. In the afternoon.
17 A. Yes. In Florida.
18 Q. So when you woke up, what did you do.
19 A. We -- we went to Chris’s room, and then we
20 went to Michael’s room.
21 Q. Now, you say you went to Chris’s room. When
22 you went to Chris’s room, did Chris go with you to
23 Mr. Jackson’s room --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- or did he stay in his room.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. In relationship to your room, where was Mr.
28 Jackson’s room. 1067
 

 
1 A. The floor above us.
2 Q. Do you remember what floor you were on.
3 A. Fifth floor.
4 Q. Now, do you remember what you saw when you
5 got off the elevator on the floor where Mr.
6 Jackson’s room was.
7 A. There was security guards all over the
8 floor.
9 Q. Okay. And what did you do.
10 A. Went to his room.
11 Q. And when you went in the room, who was in
12 the room when you first got into the room.
13 A. It was Marie Nicole, Aldo, Michael and --
14 that’s who we first saw.
15 Q. During the time that you were there, did you
16 get introduced to any other people that day.
17 A. Yeah, we were introduced to Dieter and
18 Ronald.
19 Q. And did you see Mr. Tyson at all that day.
20 A. Yeah, later that day.
21 Q. Do you remember approximately when later
22 that day.
23 A. Nighttime.
24 Q. Now, during the time that you were in -- you
25 come -- let’s go back when you first got in there
26 and you were introduced to Aldo and Marie Nicole.
27 Okay.
28 A. Okay. 1068
 

 
1 Q. Now, was Mr. Jackson present in the -- at
2 the time you walked through the door.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you have any greetings with Mr. Jackson.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What did you do.
7 A. We all sat down and we started talking and
8 he asked us if we were hungry.
9 Q. He what.
10 A. He asked us if we were hungry.
11 Q. Were you.
12 A. A little bit. It was -- so then we ordered
13 room service. And then Michael took my brother into
14 a separate room.
15 Q. Did you actually see Mr. Jackson and your
16 brother go to a separate room.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you, at some point, go into that room.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was going on when you walked into the
21 room.
22 A. They were cussing.
23 Q. What do you mean, “they were cussing”.
24 A. They were saying bad words.
25 Q. And what was the nature of what they were
26 doing.
27 A. They were probably saying the “F” word, the
28 “B” word, all different combinations. 1069
 

 
1 Q. And did you join into this.
2 A. I was right there, and he told me, yeah.
3 Q. Who told you.
4 A. Michael.
5 Q. Told you what.
6 A. To join in.
7 Q. Why.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; calls for
9 speculation.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Did Mr. Jackson, when he
12 said “join in,” did he say anything else about what
13 you were joining.
14 A. What do you mean.
15 Q. Okay. At the time you walked in there, and
16 they’re cussing, correct.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you’re asked to join in.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How was this going about. Just --
21 A. They were just cussing. Like saying
22 different combinations. And that’s all. And he
23 told me to join in.
24 Q. Did you do that.
25 A. Yeah.
26 Q. How long did this go on.
27 A. Probably two minutes before Grace walked in.
28 Q. And did you see where Grace -- who is Grace, 1070
 

 
1 by the way.
2 A. It’s Prince and Paris’s nanny.
3 Q. Was this the first time you met her or had
4 you met her before.
5 A. I’ve met her before.
6 Q. Where did you meet her the first time.
7 A. The ranch. Neverland Ranch.
8 Q. During your earlier visits.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So, she walks -- when Grace walks in, what
11 happened.
12 A. We stopped.
13 Q. And then did she remain in the room.
14 A. She was talking to Michael.
15 Q. And how long -- what happened after she
16 finished talking to Mr. Jackson.
17 A. We went into his bedroom where Prince and
18 Paris were.
19 Q. By “you,” who do you mean.
20 A. Me and my brother and Michael and Grace. We
21 all went back into the bedroom.
22 Q. So the room that you were in where all the
23 cussing was going on was a separate room from the
24 bedroom.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And how long did you remain in there.
27 A. Where.
28 Q. Yes. 1071
 

 
1 A. Five minutes probably. I don’t know.
2 Q. And then where did you go.
3 A. I went back outside.
4 Q. And what about your brother Gavin.
5 A. He stood with Michael.
6 Q. Where.
7 A. In the bedroom. Wherever he went.
8 Q. So you didn’t see Gavin come out.
9 A. No.
10 Q. At some point that day, did -- well, let me
11 ask it this way: How many times that day do you
12 think you saw your brother Gavin go into a room with
13 Mr. Jackson.
14 A. Probably once. I was off playing with
15 Prince and Paris.
16 Q. Okay. Where were you with Prince and Paris.
17 A. I was in the kitchen filling up water
18 balloons.
19 Q. Later, did you notice anything unusual about
20 your brother.
21 A. Probably --
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 You may answer.
25 THE WITNESS: He was stumbling around.
26 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Your brother.
27 A. Yes. And he had a soda can in his hand.
28 Q. What else did you notice about your brother. 1072
 

 
1 A. He wasn’t acting right. He was acting
2 funny.
3 Q. Do you remember about what time of the day
4 it was when all this was going on, when you saw your
5 brother in this condition.
6 A. Nighttime.
7 Q. Did you say anything to your mom about it.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you know what was -- what -- did you
10 know why he was acting that way.
11 A. He walked over to me and told me -- well, I
12 saw into the brim of his soda.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
14 Move to strike.
15 THE COURT: Sustained; stricken.
16 MR. SNEDDON: I couldn’t hear the Court.
17 THE COURT: Sustained; stricken.
18 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: When your brother was in
19 this condition, did he come over and talk to you at
20 all.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when he did, did you observe anything.
23 A. Yes, I saw --
24 Q. Tell us what you observed.
25 A. I saw into his -- well, I saw the brim of
26 his 7-Up can. 7-Up’s clear, and I saw red around
27 the 7-Up can. It was like -- it wasn’t really dark
28 red, but it was like light red. It was -- 1073
 

 
1 Q. Did he say anything -- don’t tell me what he
2 said. Did he say anything to you at that time.
3 A. No, he was just, like, saying weird stuff.
4 It didn’t make sense.
5 Q. Now, that evening, was Mr. Jackson present
6 in the -- in the main room of the -- of the room
7 there where Mr. Jackson’s rooms were. Was he
8 present.
9 A. I don’t remember.
10 Q. Do you remember that evening whether you
11 were going to watch something on T.V..
12 A. Oh, yeah. The “Living with Michael Jackson”
13 was coming on.
14 Q. How do you know that.
15 A. We knew that day that that was for -- that
16 was the first day it was going to be aired. And
17 Michael said for none of the T.V.’s to be on.
18 Q. I couldn’t hear you.
19 A. Michael said for none of the T.V.’s to be
20 on.
21 Q. Were you present when he said that.
22 A. No, it was just whenever we tried to turn on
23 T.V., they were just turned off.
24 Q. Who turned them off.
25 A. Well, anybody, really. What do you mean.
26 Like --
27 Q. Who turned the T.V.’s off when you turned
28 them on. 1074
 

 
1 A. There was one time I was sitting in the
2 bedroom, and I was watching another -- it was like
3 another special, or it was like an old one. And he
4 walked in and he told me not to watch that, and he
5 turned it off.
6 Q. Who.
7 A. Michael.
8 Q. The defendant.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, about the program that night, did you
11 hear Mr. Jackson say anything about whether people
12 could watch it or not watch it at their choice.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, the people that you said that you were
15 introduced to by the name of Dieter and Ronald --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- did you see them that day.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you see them with Mr. Jackson that day.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us what you saw them doing.
22 A. Walking around.
23 Q. Where.
24 A. They walked into the bedroom.
25 Q. And do you recall how long they were in
26 there.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Can you give me an approximate of how long 1075
 

 
1 you think they were in there.
2 A. 20 minutes.
3 Q. Were they in there on more than one
4 occasion, that you saw personally.
5 A. No. Well, I only saw them once.
6 Q. You just saw the one occasion.
7 A. Yeah, I was somewhere else.
8 Q. You said you were somewhere else. Where was
9 the “somewhere else” that you were.
10 A. With Prince and Paris and with Marie Nicole
11 and Aldo.
12 Q. And where was that in this complex.
13 A. Kitchen, the living room, the other bedroom
14 that was right next to this hotel room or resort
15 room.
16 THE COURT: Let’s take our break.
17 (Recess taken.)
18 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
19 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you, Your Honor.
20 Q. Okay. Star, we’re -- I’d like to go back to
21 the point where we were in Miami at the Turnberry.
22 Okay.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. And ask you a few more questions about some
25 things that happened that evening. Okay.
26 A. Okay.
27 Q. Now, at any time that evening, did you see
28 your mother leave Mr. Jackson’s rooms. 1076
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember about what time that was.
3 A. It was probably nighttime.
4 Q. And do you know where she went.
5 A. She went back to the room.
6 Q. And when your mother left, did you see
7 something happen.
8 A. Um, I don’t know who it was, but they sent
9 someone to go get my mom.
10 Q. Did you see that.
11 A. No.
12 Q. No, I meant, did you see them send somebody.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then did you see your mom come back.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And was she alone or with somebody.
17 A. She was with someone.
18 Q. The same person who left.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you were in Miami, did you personally
21 ever participate in a press conference.
22 A. No. No.
23 Q. To your knowledge, did your brother ever
24 participate in a press conference.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Actually, I think we all liked it the better
27 way where you could be heard. Could you lean a
28 little closer. 1077
 

 
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. That’s perfect. You’ll save everybody a lot
3 of problems if you just speak like that.
4 On the time that you’re in Miami at the
5 Turnberry, did you ever drink any alcohol on that
6 time.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you remember the day that you left Miami.
9 A. No.
10 Q. I mean, do you remember anything that
11 happened that day. Do you remember getting on the
12 plane.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. All right. What time was it when you got to
15 the plane. Was it daylight or dark, or what.
16 A. It was turning into night.
17 Q. And that particular day, during that day, do
18 you remember anything that happened.
19 A. That day. I think that was the day that
20 Michael gave my brother a watch.
21 Q. Do you remember anything else that happened
22 that day besides that.
23 A. Going home.
24 Q. Did you see Chris Tucker that day.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Where did you see him.
27 A. Michael’s room.
28 Q. On the day you left. 1078
 

 
1 A. Oh, the day we left. No. Chris took me, my
2 brother to the resort massage area, or where -- I
3 don’t know what it’s called.
4 Q. Okay. When he took you there, what
5 happened.
6 A. He -- we got massages.
7 Q. Did you ever have a massage before.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Pardon.
10 A. No.
11 Q. How did you get from the hotel to the
12 airport.
13 A. By a shuttle.
14 Q. And who was with you.
15 A. Michael, me and my brother, my sister, my
16 mom, Grace, Prince and Paris, Marie Nicole, Aldo.
17 Everyone that was there. And a guy named Dr.
18 Farshshian, I think. I think that’s how you
19 pronounce his name.
20 Q. Now, did -- did you get on the plane.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did all of those folks get on the plane.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, I want to go back in point of time to
25 ask you one other question about Miami, before we
26 start talking about the plane trip. Okay.
27 A. Okay.
28 Q. You told the ladies and gentlemen of the 1079
 

 
1 jury that at some point on one evening, you saw your
2 brother acting kind of weird and saying some things
3 that didn’t make sense.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you notice anything about your brother
6 the next morning.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Were you in the room the
10 next morning when your brother -- when you woke up,
11 was your brother in the room.
12 A. I think so.
13 Q. Did your brother have any problems the next
14 morning.
15 A. He didn’t feel good. He had a headache.
16 Q. Anything else.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 THE WITNESS: He was -- he had a headache.
20 He felt like he was going to throw up. Just didn’t
21 feel good.
22 MR. SNEDDON: All right. Your Honor, at
23 this point, if we could use the lights again, I’m
24 going to show the witness some photographs.
25 Counsel.
26 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
27 table.)
28 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. I’m going to 1080
 

 
1 show you some photographs. I’m going to lay them in
2 front of you - they’re all in evidence - and I’m
3 going to go through them one by one with you.
4 All right. Do you recognize the photograph
5 that’s marked as People’s No. 17 in evidence.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who is that.
8 A. It’s Dieter.
9 Q. And where was it that you met Dieter for the
10 first time.
11 A. In Miami.
12 Q. And where in Miami.
13 A. In Michael’s room.
14 Q. All right. And put that one down.
15 Pick up the next one, People’s 18 in
16 evidence. Do you recognize that person.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who is that.
19 A. Ronald.
20 Q. And where did you meet Ronald for the first
21 time.
22 A. Michael’s room.
23 Q. And where in Michael’s -- were you in Miami.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. Put that one down.
26 The next photograph, which is People’s 21,
27 who is that.
28 A. That’s Aldo. 1081
 

 
1 Q. Where was it the first time you met the
2 person you know as Aldo.
3 A. In Miami.
4 Q. Does Aldo have a nickname.
5 A. Yes, it’s Baby Rubba.
6 Q. Okay. Where did you meet him in Miami.
7 A. In Michael’s bedroom.
8 Q. All right. 22, People’s 22 in evidence,
9 who’s that.
10 A. Marie Nicole.
11 Q. And where did you meet her for the first
12 time.
13 A. In Michael’s room.
14 Q. Would that have been in Miami also.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Put that one down.
17 The next one is People’s 43. Do you
18 recognize the person in that photograph.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who is that.
21 A. It’s Grace. Prince and Paris’s nanny.
22 Q. Okay. You can put that one down.
23 And the next one is People’s 14. Do you
24 recognize that photograph.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Who’s that.
27 A. That’s Dustin, Chris Tucker, Aja, my sister,
28 me and my brother. 1082
 

 
1 Q. Okay. Why don’t you use that little light
2 and just show us which one is Dustin. That’s the
3 little child, correct.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Now, I have an exhibit that I’ve
6 had marked as People’s 341 for identification
7 purposes at this point.
8 I’m going to show it to you and ask you to
9 look at it.
10 Do you recognize that.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what is that.
13 A. It’s the airplane.
14 Q. What airplane.
15 A. That we flew back from Miami.
16 Q. Does that appear to be the interior of that
17 airplane.
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I move that 341
20 come into evidence.
21 We used it -- Your Honor, I might indicate
22 to the Court, we used it to illustrate the various
23 locations of the individuals as they were seated on
24 the plane to this witness’s knowledge.
25 THE COURT: All right. It’s admitted.
26 MR. SNEDDON: All right.
27 Q. Star, would you put that down in front of
28 you, please, and take those other photographs and 1083
 

 
1 stick them up on top for me. Thank you very much.
2 Now, I’m going to hand you this, and I’m
3 going to give you this pen.
4 Actually, I changed my mind. I’m going to
5 give you this pen.
6 Your Honor, with the Court’s permission, I’m
7 going to use the Elmo.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 THE BAILIFF: You need to push “Elmo” on the
10 little --
11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Star, turning
12 around and looking at the exhibit that’s on the
13 board - okay. - do you see that.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That’s just like the one in front of you,
16 correct.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. Would you show the ladies and
19 gentlemen of the jury where the defendant, Michael
20 Jackson, was sitting on the plane.
21 Okay. Now, would you please, on your
22 exhibit in front of you, the one that’s in front of
23 you, put an “MJ.”
24 Now, where was your brother on the plane.
25 Okay. You’re indicating the bottom of the
26 diagram in the seat next to Mr. Jackson, correct.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. All right. Would you put a “G” at that 1084
 

 
1 location.
2 A. It’s not working.
3 Q. The pen’s not working.
4 A. No.
5 MR. SNEDDON: That’s all the county can
6 afford, though.
7 Q. Try that one. Is that working.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that’s red instead of blue.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Stick with that.
12 Where were you sitting on the plane.
13 A. Right here.
14 Q. All right. Would you put your -- put an “S”
15 in there for -- and by “here,” you mean to the far
16 right side of the diagram in the white seat across
17 from the blue couch.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And where was Aldo and Marie Nicole sitting,
20 to your knowledge.
21 A. Aldo was sitting right here. And Marie
22 Nicole was sitting right here.
23 Q. On each side of the area that’s in blue,
24 correct.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Okay. Would you put “A” for where Aldo is
27 seated. And just put an “MN” for Marie Nicole on
28 the Exhibit 341. 1085
 

 
1 Now, where is -- where’s your mother; do you
2 recall.
3 A. She was sitting right there.
4 Q. So it’s the -- on the lower half of the
5 diagram, it’s the seat up toward the left side,
6 correct.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Why don’t you put a “JA” in
9 there.
10 And then you mentioned a person by the
11 name -- a doctor.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Doctor what.
14 A. Dr. Farshshian.
15 Q. Where was he seated.
16 A. Right there.
17 Q. Why don’t you just put a “DR” in there. And
18 that’s the seat right across from where your mother
19 was; is that right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, who else was on the plane.
22 A. Prince, Paris, my sister, a lady named
23 Patty, and Grace.
24 Q. Where was Patty.
25 All right. Why don’t you just put a “P” in
26 there.
27 And then the lady you’ve identified as
28 Grace, the nanny, where was she. 1086
 

 
1 Okay. Why don’t you put a “GR” in there.
2 And by that, you’re referring to the top
3 part of the plane, correct.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, where was your sister Davellin.
6 A. She was right there.
7 Q. Okay. Why don’t you put a “DA” there.
8 A. The pen is starting to run out. Wait.
9 There it goes. Never mind.
10 MR. ZONEN: It’s just the surface.
11 MR. SNEDDON: The surface. All right.
12 Q. Did it work.
13 A. Yeah, it’s working now.
14 Q. And next to Davellin was who.
15 A. Paris.
16 Q. Who.
17 A. Paris.
18 Q. All right. Just put a “PA” in there, if you
19 would.
20 Now, during the time that you were on the
21 plane, after you left Miami, did you ever get up and
22 move to any other location on the plane.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where did you move to.
25 All right. You’re indicating in the blue
26 area.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And the seat the farthest to the left of the 1087
 

 
1 blue area.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And who was in that seat when you took off.
4 A. Aldo.
5 Q. All right. So would you please put “S-1” in
6 there.
7 A. The pen’s not working anymore.
8 Q. Just try it. I think it’s the surface, not
9 the pen.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Did it work.
12 A. No. But --
13 THE BAILIFF: Here. Mr. Sneddon.
14 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Let’s try this
15 one.
16 A. It’s working.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you.
18 THE BAILIFF: Uh-huh.
19 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Now, was there
20 a telephone on the plane.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where.
23 All right. On your exhibit, put a “TF.”
24 A. “TF”.
25 Q. “TF,” where the telephone was.
26 Now, at any time when you were on the plane,
27 did you see your brother and Mr. Jackson drinking
28 anything. 1088
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you see.
3 A. I saw Michael with a Diet Coke can, and my
4 brother with a Sprite can.
5 Q. With a -- what kind.
6 A. A -- I don’t know exactly what brand it is,
7 but it was a soda can.
8 Q. Now, were you ever offered to drink out of
9 either one of those cans.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. By whom.
12 A. By Michael.
13 Q. And what did he say to you.
14 A. He leaned over and he handed it to me. I
15 thought it was Diet Coke so -- I didn’t want to be
16 rude, so I took a drink, and it tasted like the
17 smell of, like, rubbing alcohol. It tasted
18 really -- so I handed it back to him. And I asked
19 him what it was, and then he said it was wine.
20 Q. Did you drink any more out of that can
21 during this trip.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did -- tell me what you saw your brother and
24 Mr. Jackson doing during the trip.
25 A. I saw my brother -- after a while he didn’t
26 feel too good. So my brother leaned over on his --
27 on Michael’s chest and he -- I saw Michael’s head
28 licking my brother’s -- the top of his head. 1089
 

 
1 Q. What do you mean.
2 A. He was just licking his head.
3 Q. How long did that last.
4 A. I don’t know. Six seconds probably.
5 Q. Did you notice any change in the behavior of
6 Mr. Jackson during the flight.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 THE WITNESS: Really weird.
10 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: What do you mean, “really
11 weird”.
12 A. Like, just didn’t make sense.
13 Q. Who.
14 A. Michael. And my brother.
15 Q. That telephone that’s on the plane, did you
16 ever see the telephone used during the trip.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. By whom.
19 A. By Michael.
20 Q. And what did you see happen. Or did you
21 hear anything, also.
22 A. He made a crank call.
23 Q. I’m sorry.
24 A. He made a crank call.
25 Q. What do you mean, “a crank call”.
26 A. He called someone and he --
27 Q. You have to lean into the phone there, lean
28 into the microphone, if you would. 1090
 

 
1 What is a crank call, to you.
2 A. To me.
3 Q. What does it mean.
4 A. Oh. Just when you call someone and hang up
5 on them.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. That’s what it means to me.
8 But what I saw Michael doing, was he called
9 up and he said he was having a consensus, and he
10 wanted to know how big her p-u-s-s-y was. And
11 that’s what he said to her.
12 Q. How many such calls did you hear him make.
13 A. Two, on the plane.
14 Q. Did your brother make any calls.
15 A. I don’t remember. He probably did.
16 Q. Did you make any calls.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, you mentioned something about a watch.
19 When was the first time that you saw your brother
20 Gavin with a watch.
21 A. It was at the end of the flight, and I saw
22 it on his wrist.
23 Q. Now, did your brother ordinarily have a
24 watch.
25 A. No, he never wears a watch.
26 Q. The first time you saw it was when you got
27 off the plane.
28 A. Yes. 1091
 

 
1 Q. Did you see it at all on the plane.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Where were you when you saw the watch for
4 the first time.
5 A. We were leaving. We were getting off the
6 plane.
7 Q. Now, did you see Mr. Jackson at any point in
8 time wearing a jacket.
9 A. Oh, yeah. That was at the -- Miami. When
10 he first opened the door, he had a black jacket with
11 a bunch of shiny stuff on his back.
12 Q. When your brother got off the plane --
13 A. He had that on also.
14 Q. Now, when the plane landed, can you tell
15 us....
16 Your Honor, I think we can put the lights
17 back on, if the Court would like, and we can take
18 this item off.
19 Okay. Star --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- just -- we don’t need -- let me grab the
22 diagrams.
23 Oh, would you write your name on the bottom
24 of that diagram, please. “The diagram” meaning 341.
25 A. I’ll have to carve it in, because it doesn’t
26 appear. There you go.
27 Q. All right. When you got back -- when --
28 excuse me. When the plane landed, did you know 1092
 

 
1 where you were.
2 A. We were at a private airport in Santa
3 Barbara.
4 Q. And when you got off the plane, where did
5 you go. I mean, what -- physically, where did you
6 go.
7 A. We were heading for the ranch.
8 Q. And how did you get to the ranch.
9 A. By a stretch white Excursion limousine.
10 Q. Do you remember about how long it took to
11 get from the airport to the ranch.
12 A. 30 minutes.
13 Q. And when you got to the ranch, was it
14 daytime or nighttime.
15 A. Nighttime.
16 Q. And when you got to the ranch, what did you
17 do.
18 A. We all went to sleep. And me, Aldo, my
19 brother, we went to Michael’s room and --
20 Q. You’re going to have to lean into the
21 microphone. I can’t even hear you.
22 A. Me, Aldo, my brother, we all went to bed.
23 We all went to sleep in Michael’s bed.
24 Q. Where was the defendant, Mr. Jackson.
25 A. There also.
26 Q. Where did he sleep.
27 A. In the bed with us.
28 Q. Now, did you see -- when you got to the 1093
 

 
1 ranch, did you see where your mother went.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Pardon.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you see where your sister went.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, I want to jump forward just a moment,
8 Star. Are you familiar with a person by the name of
9 Jesus.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And to your knowledge, who was Jesus.
12 A. He was part of security.
13 Q. And where did you meet Jesus.
14 A. At the ranch.
15 Q. And when was the first time you met Jesus.
16 A. After the Miami trip.
17 Q. And at some point in time after you got back
18 from Miami and you were on the ranch, did you leave
19 the ranch with Jesus.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where did you go.
22 A. We went to -- I think we went to our
23 grandmother’s house.
24 Q. Do you remember who drove you.
25 A. Jesus.
26 Q. Do you remember what car you went in.
27 A. It was a Rolls Royce or something like that.
28 It was -- 1094
 

 
1 Q. A fancy car.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, here’s what I want to do. I want to
4 ask you some questions, Star --
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. -- about what happened when you got back on
7 the ranch from Miami, or you got on the ranch from
8 Miami, to the time you left the ranch with Jesus.
9 Okay.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Between that time period.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. During the time that you were there, from
14 the time you got -- that you went to the ranch from
15 Miami and the time that you left with Jesus, was the
16 defendant, Michael Jackson, on the ranch.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. During that time that you were on the ranch,
19 can you tell us where you spent the nights during
20 that period of time.
21 A. Michael’s bedroom.
22 Q. With whom.
23 A. With Michael, my brother, Aldo.
24 Q. And where did you sleep.
25 A. On the bed.
26 Q. Where did your brother sleep.
27 A. On the bed.
28 Q. Where did the defendant sleep. 1095
 

 
1 A. On the bed.
2 Q. And where did Aldo sleep.
3 A. On the bed.
4 Q. Do you remember who slept next to who.
5 A. It was -- depends on your point of view.
6 Q. Depends on the point of view.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Okay. Who slept next to you.
9 A. Aldo.
10 Q. And who slept -- and who slept next to Aldo.
11 A. My brother.
12 Q. And who slept next to your brother.
13 A. Michael.
14 Q. Now, between the time that you got to the
15 ranch from Miami and the time that you left with
16 Jesus - okay. --
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. -- did you drink any alcohol.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember on how many occasions.
21 A. I think so.
22 Q. Pardon.
23 A. It was -- it was a lot of times.
24 Q. And with whom did you drink.
25 A. Only with Michael.
26 Q. I’m sorry.
27 A. Only with Michael.
28 Q. Was there anybody else present when you and 1096
 

 
1 Mr. -- when the defendant were drinking alcohol.
2 A. Me, my brother, and Aldo.
3 Q. And where did you drink alcohol with Mr.
4 Jackson during that time.
5 A. Bedroom. His office. And the wine cellar.
6 Q. Can you describe where the wine cellar is.
7 A. It’s in the arcade downstairs, and the
8 jukebox thing covers the stairs.
9 Q. What did you drink when you drank with the
10 defendant.
11 A. Red or white wine.
12 Q. How many times do you think you were in
13 Mr. Jackson’s office and drank with him.
14 A. A couple times.
15 Q. And how many times do you think you drank
16 with him in his bedroom.
17 A. A lot of times.
18 Q. And the cellar.
19 A. Probably twice.
20 Q. Do you remember what Mr. Jackson drank
21 during these occasions.
22 A. Wine, with us. It was either red or white.
23 Q. Did Mr. Jackson have a term that he referred
24 to in connection with the wine.
25 A. He called it “Jesus juice.”
26 Q. Would you describe to us -- now, I want to
27 make sure we’re just talking about the time when you
28 got there from Miami till the time that you left 1097
 

 
1 with Jesus. Okay.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Did you at any time, during that
4 period of time when you were drinking with the
5 defendant, Mr. Jackson, see him get intoxicated.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many times.
8 A. I don’t remember. But it was probably a
9 couple times.
10 Q. During the time that you stayed at the
11 ranch, did you learn where the location of the
12 alcohol was on the ranch.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where.
15 A. It was in the wine cellar. And it was
16 also -- it was just in the wine cellar.
17 Q. I’m sorry.
18 A. It was just in the wine cellar. And there’s
19 some type of alcohol in a refrigerated area.
20 Q. And where is this refrigerated area located.
21 A. Right when you walk in through the back of
22 the house, of the main house, there’s, like,
23 refrigerators and glass doors. And it’s, like, back
24 there.
25 Q. And did you actually see the alcohol in that
26 area.
27 A. No. But I know there was some there.
28 Q. The wine cellar, how do you get into the 1098
 

 
1 wine cellar.
2 A. You need a key and you need to go through a
3 door.
4 Q. And did you know where the key was.
5 A. Not really. It was in the lounge. And I
6 know where it was. Whoever opened the wine cellar,
7 it was like -- it was Jesus or someone else.
8 Q. Were you ever in the wine cellar without the
9 defendant.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of
12 the jury that when you were on the plane, you
13 overheard Mr. Jackson make some crank calls,
14 correct.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you ever present where any crank calls
17 were made from the ranch.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And where was that. Where did that occur.
20 A. Upstairs in his bedroom.
21 Q. And who was present.
22 A. Me, Aldo, my brother, and Michael.
23 Q. The defendant.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell us what went on.
26 A. Started making crank calls.
27 Q. Who.
28 A. Michael, Aldo, me and my brother. 1099
 

 
1 Q. And tell us, when you made the crank calls,
2 how did you pick the number.
3 A. Just dialed any number.
4 Q. And when people picked up the phone, what
5 was said.
6 A. I don’t know. I don’t know exactly what was
7 said.
8 Q. Did you ever make any of these calls.
9 A. I think so, yes.
10 Q. What happened if nobody picked up on the
11 other end of the line.
12 A. Michael would have us take a drink of wine.
13 Q. Who would.
14 A. If the phone number didn’t exist, we’d have
15 to drink a drink of wine, or he’d have us drink
16 wine.
17 Q. Did you see alcohol in Mr. Jackson’s
18 bedroom.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On how many occasions.
21 A. Many occasions. Many occasions.
22 Q. Where was it, usually.
23 A. Probably on the floor, or around the dresser
24 somewhere.
25 Q. Do you remember how many particular
26 occasions that you -- that the four of you did these
27 crank calls. Was it on more than one night.
28 A. Yes. 1100
 

 
1 Q. How many nights.
2 A. Many nights.
3 Q. I’m sorry.
4 A. Many nights.
5 Q. Can you give me an estimate.
6 A. Seven. I don’t know exactly.
7 Q. Were all of these occasions where -- when
8 you placed the crank calls before you left with
9 Jesus.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you -- during the time that you got to
12 Neverland Ranch and the time that you left with
13 Jesus, did you see your mother at all.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you see her out around the grounds at
16 all.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you visit her at all.
19 A. A couple times.
20 Q. Where did you visit her.
21 A. In her guest room, guest unit.
22 Q. Now, from the time that you arrived at the
23 ranch from Miami till the time you left with
24 Jesus - okay. --
25 A. Uh-huh.
26 Q. I showed you a photograph of a person that
27 you’ve identified as the person you knew as Dieter.
28 A. Yes. 1101
 

 
1 Q. Did you ever see Dieter at the ranch.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the person who you identified as Ronald.
4 Did you ever see Ronald at the ranch.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the person you identified as Tyson,
7 Frank Tyson, did you ever see him at the ranch.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, during the time that you were at the
10 ranch, when you got there until the time you two
11 left with Jesus, did you go to school.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you do any homework.
14 A. No.
15 Q. What did you do.
16 A. Nothing. We -- nothing.
17 Q. What time did you ordinarily go to bed.
18 A. 2:00 in the morning, and 3:00. It was
19 really late at night.
20 Q. Did you see -- while you were at the ranch,
21 between the time you arrived there from Miami till
22 the time that you left with Jesus, did you see the
23 defendant, Mr. Jackson, with either Dieter or
24 Ronald.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. On how many occasions.
27 A. Probably saw him about three occasions.
28 Q. And were both Dieter and Ronald with 1102
 

 
1 Mr. Jackson, or was it just one of them.
2 A. I think it was both of them.
3 Q. Do you recall where you saw them.
4 A. In his bedroom, in a guest unit, and in his
5 office.
6 Q. Now, did you ever have any -- during the
7 same time frame - okay. - did you have any contact
8 with Dieter.
9 A. No. I don’t think so.
10 Q. Did the subject matter of your brother’s
11 watch ever come up during this time.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Tell the jury what happened in that regard.
14 A. He pulled us into a guest unit.
15 Q. Who’s “he”.
16 A. Dieter.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. And he said that he wanted to take the --
19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
20 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, it’s offered as --
21 under 2 -- 1223.
22 THE COURT: All right. I’ll admit it
23 conditionally, as I have other hearsay statements.
24 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Go ahead.
25 A. Okay. So he said that he wanted to take
26 back the watch and put it in a safe, so when he
27 turns 18 he could take it out.
28 Q. And were you present -- what did your 1103
 

 
1 brother say.
2 A. He said, “No.”
3 Q. Were you able to see the relationship
4 between your mother and Dieter and Ronald.
5 A. What do you mean.
6 Q. Did you see any interaction between them,
7 between your mother and Dieter and Ronald.
8 A. I don’t think so.
9 Q. Did you -- during this period of time, from
10 the time you arrived from Miami until the time that
11 you left with Jesus, did the subject matter of you
12 participating in a video interview come up.
13 A. They wanted -- they wanted us to only say
14 good things about Michael.
15 Q. Who’s that.
16 A. Dieter was telling me and my -- my mom, my
17 brother, my sister and me, they only wanted us to
18 say good things about Michael.
19 Q. Did you ever see anything written down.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where. Where were you when you saw that.
22 A. I was in the guest unit.
23 Q. And who was present.
24 A. Dieter, me and my mom and my brother, my
25 sister.
26 Q. Now, do you remember -- do you remember
27 leaving with Jesus.
28 A. Yes. 1104
 

 
1 Q. All right. And tell the jury what time you
2 left and under what circumstances.
3 A. It was really late at night. It was really
4 late at night, and it was spontaneous. He just --
5 he pulled around the car and we left.
6 Q. Now, where were all your clothes prior to
7 leaving.
8 A. In the room.
9 Q. What room.
10 A. Guest unit.
11 Q. Your clothes were in the guest unit.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you gathered up your belongings, you got
14 in the car and you left. Where did you go.
15 A. To my grandma’s house.
16 Q. Now, at the time that you were at the ranch
17 before you left with Jesus, were you -- did you
18 personally -- not what somebody else said, but did
19 you personally hear anybody threaten anyone.
20 A. When I was trying to head to my -- when I
21 was trying to head to my mom’s guest unit, Frank
22 approached me, and he was -- he was -- I don’t
23 remember what I was trying to do, but I was trying
24 to go to my mom’s guest unit, and Frank was telling
25 me that he has ways that my grand --
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
27 MR. SNEDDON: Same offer, Your Honor.
28 THE COURT: All right. This is conditionally 1105
 

 
1 admitted under the previous instruction.
2 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Go ahead. You can tell us,
3 please.
4 A. He was saying that he has ways that my
5 grandparents could disappear.
6 Q. And that was told to you personally.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you tell that to anybody else.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, did you ever go back to the ranch after
11 that.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. So I want to talk about now, I want
14 to talk about some events that occurred from the
15 time that you left the ranch with Jesus till the
16 time you went back.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Okay. Do you -- where did you spend that
19 time.
20 A. At my grandma’s house.
21 Q. Were you ever over at Jay Jackson’s house.
22 A. I don’t remember.
23 Q. Do you remember an occasion where a private
24 investigator came to Mr. Jackson’s house and there
25 was an interview with you and the family.
26 A. Yes.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
28 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was, 1106
 

 
1 “Yes.” Next question.
2 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Can you tell us when you
3 believe that to have occurred.
4 A. Oh, it was probably a couple days after we
5 came back from the ranch the first time.
6 Q. And were you present during that
7 conversation.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did you participate in that
10 conversation.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, you said -- I believe you just said you
13 went back to the ranch.
14 A. No, when we came back from the ranch.
15 Q. When you came back from the ranch. Did you
16 ever go back to the ranch.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember who you were with when you
19 went back to the ranch.
20 A. No, I don’t remember.
21 Q. You went back by yourself.
22 A. No, I went back with my -- my brother, my
23 sister and -- I don’t think -- I don’t know. I
24 think it was --
25 Q. I’m sorry, you’re going to have to lean into
26 the mike.
27 A. I think it was my brother, my sister, me and
28 my mom. 1107
 

 
1 Q. Do you remember what time it was when you
2 got back to the ranch.
3 A. I don’t remember.
4 Q. Was it daytime or nighttime.
5 A. I don’t remember.
6 Q. Did anything unusual happen when you got
7 back to the ranch.
8 A. I don’t remember.
9 Q. The people you’ve identified as Dieter and
10 Ronald --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- do you remember whether or not they were
13 at the ranch when you got back.
14 A. Yes, they were there.
15 Q. When you got back to the ranch, where did
16 you go that night. Where did you sleep that night.
17 A. Michael’s room.
18 Q. All right. And who else was there.
19 A. My brother, Michael. I don’t -- Aldo.
20 Q. Pardon.
21 A. Aldo.
22 Q. Now, you -- you left the ranch again,
23 correct. Do you remember the next time you left the
24 ranch.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. What was the reason you left.
27 A. To do a rebuttal.
28 Q. And who did you leave with. 1108
 

 
1 A. Hamid.
2 Q. And do you know where you went.
3 A. We went to his house.
4 Q. By “his house,” you mean who.
5 A. Hamid’s house.
6 Q. And who else was with you in the car besides
7 you and Hamid.
8 A. My brother and my sister.
9 Q. When you got to Hamid’s house, what did you
10 do.
11 A. Me and my brother, we sat down, we started
12 playing video games.
13 Q. Was there anybody else there at the time
14 that you arrived besides you and your brother and
15 your sister and Hamid.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did anybody else arrive after that.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who arrived after that.
20 A. Vinnie, my mom, other people.
21 Q. Do you remember the names of any of those
22 people.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you remember how many there were.
25 A. A lot.
26 Q. Now, you said you and your brother were
27 playing video games. What room were you in.
28 A. The living room. 1109
 

 
1 Q. And do you recall the filming -- the actual
2 filming that occurred later. Was it in that room or
3 a different room.
4 A. It was in that room.
5 Q. And when your mother arrived, where was your
6 mother. Was she in that room or another room.
7 A. She was -- she was in another room.
8 Q. With you.
9 A. What do you mean. Like --
10 Q. I couldn’t hear you.
11 A. At what time.
12 Q. When she first got there, where was she.
13 A. She was where the pool table was.
14 Q. Is that in the living room or another room.
15 A. That’s another room.
16 Q. And so she was in there. How long was she
17 in there.
18 A. I don’t know.
19 Q. You weren’t in there, right.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, before you left the ranch -- before you
22 left the ranch with Hamid to go to his house
23 - okay. - could you tell me whether or not Dieter or
24 Ronald were there.
25 A. They were there.
26 Q. Can you tell me whether or not you had any
27 meeting with -- or conversation with them.
28 A. Yes, we had a conversation with them. 1110
 

 
1 Q. And what did -- let’s talk about Dieter.
2 Who was doing the talking.
3 A. Dieter.
4 Q. What did he say.
5 A. He was telling me just to say only good
6 things and -- about Michael.
7 Q. Who else was present during that
8 conversation.
9 A. My brother, my sister, my mom.
10 Q. Okay. You’re at Hamid’s house and you’re
11 about ready to -- for the filming. Do you remember
12 what time it was when you got to Hamid’s.
13 A. 1:00 in the morning, when we first got
14 there.
15 Q. And do you remember the filming.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you in the whole film.
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. Now, the things that you said on the film,
20 the rebuttal film - okay.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. You have to indicate “Yes” or “No.”
23 A. Oh, yes.
24 Q. There’s a statement in there that the
25 defendant, Mr. Jackson, helped you do your homework.
26 Was that true.
27 A. No.
28 Q. And there’s a statement in there that you 1111
 

 
1 always had his telephone number so you could get
2 ahold of him. Is that true.
3 A. No.
4 Q. How did you feel about Mr. Jackson at the
5 time you participated in this rebuttal film.
6 A. I don’t remember. Probably at that point I
7 thought he was an okay guy.
8 Q. Now, after the film, do you remember about
9 what time it was when you left.
10 A. 3:00 in the morning.
11 Q. Where did you go.
12 A. To Major Jackson’s house. Jay Jackson’s.
13 Q. Who took you there.
14 A. Vinnie.
15 Q. And who was with you when you went there.
16 A. Me, my brother, my sister and my mom.
17 Q. Do you remember meeting some ladies from
18 the -- social workers.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when did that happen.
21 A. The next morning.
22 Q. And where did it happen.
23 A. At the apartment.
24 Q. At whose apartment.
25 A. Jay’s apartment.
26 Q. And do you remember about what time it was
27 when that happened.
28 A. Probably 10:00 a.m. 1112
 

 
1 Q. And who -- that morning, were there other
2 people there besides the social workers.
3 A. My mom.
4 Q. Who else.
5 A. My brother, my sister and me.
6 Q. Anybody else.
7 A. Well, in the beginning of the morning, there
8 was a, like, bodyguard sent by Michael or something.
9 And he had a tape-recorder. And Aja was there also.
10 Q. And Aja is Chris Tucker’s fiancee --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- at the time.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Had you ever met this bodyguard before.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you remember what his name was at all.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Would you describe him for us, please.
19 A. Big.
20 Q. You say he had a tape-recorder. How do you
21 know that.
22 A. He had it in his -- I believe it was his
23 left hand.
24 Q. Did you ever see him talk to your mother.
25 A. He said that someone wanted her to have
26 this, or something.
27 Q. Were you present when that occurred.
28 A. Yes. 1113
 

 
1 Q. You heard him say that.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you hear what your mother said.
4 A. No. I don’t remember what my mom said. But
5 the -- but the three ladies said that she can’t have
6 that, and they both need to wait downstairs.
7 Q. They both had to wait downstairs. Who are
8 “they”.
9 A. Aja and the guy.
10 Q. Did they leave the room --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- at some point.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you ever see the tape-recorder after
15 that.
16 A. No. I never saw him after that.
17 Q. And then you had an interview with the
18 ladies from -- the three social workers.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, when you had the interview with the
21 social workers, was everybody in the same room or
22 did they take people separately.
23 A. Everyone was in the same room.
24 Q. And do you remember any conversations with
25 the social workers about what you said to them.
26 A. Not really. I don’t remember what I exactly
27 said.
28 Q. Do you remember the topics that were covered 1114
 

 
1 by the questions.
2 A. I think everyone was wondering whether --
3 no, I don’t remember.
4 Q. Well, take your time.
5 A. I don’t remember.
6 Q. Was everything you told them the truth.
7 A. No, not exactly.
8 Q. What do you mean, “not exactly”.
9 A. Like -- I don’t know. Just, like, he
10 never -- he never really helped us with our
11 homework. He -- can’t think of another example.
12 Q. During the time -- during the entire time
13 that you were at Neverland Ranch, from the time you
14 got there from Miami till the time you left for the
15 very last time - okay. - from that time period, did
16 you ever see your mother in Michael Jackson’s
17 bedroom.
18 A. No. She never left her guest unit.
19 Q. So how did she eat.
20 A. I don’t know. There’s a couple times I
21 brought her some food I made her, but --
22 Q. Did you ever tell your mom the code to get
23 into Michael Jackson’s bedroom.
24 A. No. She never asked.
25 Q. To your knowledge, did you ever see your
26 sister Davellin sleep in that main residence/house.
27 A. No.
28 Q. To your knowledge, did your sister Davellin 1115
 

 
1 ever have a friend of hers that went to school with
2 her up at the ranch during this period of time.
3 A. Never.
4 Q. Now, during the time that you knew Mr.
5 Jackson, did he used to call you “Star”.
6 A. No. No.
7 Q. What did he call you.
8 A. “Blow Hole.”
9 Q. “Blow Hole”.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when he talked to Gavin, did he call
12 Gavin “Gavin”.
13 A. Yes, he called him “Apple Head” or
14 “Doo-Doo.”
15 Q. And did you have a name that you called the
16 defendant.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever -- anybody refer to him as
19 “Michael” or “Michael Daddy,” or “Daddy”.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
21 THE COURT: Overruled.
22 THE WITNESS: My brother called him “Daddy.”
23 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Did you hear him do that on
24 more than one occasion.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. How many.
27 A. I know it was more than twice.
28 Q. Now, after the -- excuse me. After you had 1116
 

 
1 the interview with the social workers - okay. --
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. -- where did you go.
4 A. Me, me brother, my sister went with Aja back
5 to the ranch.
6 Q. And your mother.
7 A. I think she stood behind.
8 Q. Okay. Now, I would like to show you a few
9 more photographs at this point, if we could.
10 All right. I’m going to start with a couple
11 of photographs that are already in evidence. And
12 I’m going to show you a photograph marked as
13 People’s No. 30. And tell the ladies and gentlemen
14 of the jury who that is.
15 A. That’s Jesus.
16 Q. And -- let me just leave these here, and
17 I’ll go get them and ask you some questions.
18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Can we switch to the PC,
19 Your Honor. Thank you.
20 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. So the
21 person -- that’s the person that took you to your
22 grandparents’ place.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, let’s look at the next one, No. 29.
25 Who is that.
26 A. That’s Hamid.
27 Q. Do you remember where it was that you met
28 Hamid for the very first time. 1117
 

 
1 A. Can’t remember.
2 Q. All right. Why don’t you turn that over,
3 then.
4 And the next one is 193. Is that the number
5 on it.
6 A. It’s 194.
7 Q. 194. All right. What is that.
8 A. That’s not the picture I’m looking at.
9 Q. I’m sorry.
10 A. 194.
11 Q. What about it.
12 A. That’s not the picture.
13 Q. What’s the number.
14 A. That one, that’s it.
15 Q. That’s 194.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Okay. What is that.
18 A. This is Hamid’s living room and this is
19 where we did the videotaping.
20 Q. All right. You were in here playing video
21 games.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where.
24 A. Right there. Right there.
25 Q. Were you playing it on the T.V..
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. So the T.V. that’s located on the far
28 left-hand corner of that exhibit, correct. 1118
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. 194.
3 Now, where is the area where the filming was
4 done.
5 A. All in this area.
6 Q. You’re indicating where the glass doors are
7 and the farthest of the two rugs.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, is -- all right. Let’s go to the last
10 photograph. Before -- it’s already on the board.
11 Do you recognize that.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What number is that.
14 A. 193.
15 Q. And 193, is that an accurate depiction of
16 the pool table room.
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, 193 is not in
19 evidence. Ask that it be admitted.
20 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
21 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
22 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And where is the -- where
23 is the -- can you see in that photograph the room
24 where the video took place.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And “that photograph” being 193.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Would you show the ladies and gentlemen of 1119
 

 
1 the jury.
2 So it’s through the opening there where the
3 rug is shown on the far left-hand side, correct.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. SNEDDON: Counsel. I just have a few
7 more.
8 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
9 table.)
10 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Your Honor, could we black
11 out the screen for just a moment.
12 Thank you.
13 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
14 table.)
15 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to hand you
16 those.
17 All right. Would you please pull up the
18 photograph up there that has the number “125” on it.
19 Do you see that.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recognize that.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Tell me what it is.
24 A. That’s the hotel that we stood at while we
25 were getting our passports and visas.
26 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, could we go to
27 “Input 1”.
28 Thank you. 1120
 

 
1 Q. And who were you there with.
2 A. Frank, Vinnie, and a guy named Johnny. And
3 my mom, my brother and my sister.
4 Q. And who was in the room with you.
5 A. My mom, my brother and my sister.
6 Q. And the guy Johnny, where was he.
7 A. He was in the lobby.
8 Q. Do you know approximately how long you
9 stayed at this place, the Country Inn and Suites.
10 A. Four days, something like that.
11 Q. All right. Let’s see the next photograph,
12 which should be --
13 A. 135.
14 Q. -- 135. Do you recognize that.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What is that.
17 A. That’s the hotel’s kitchen. Well, that’s
18 the room that we stood in. And that’s the kitchen.
19 Q. Okay. And then the next photograph, which
20 is No. 19 that’s in evidence, do you recognize the
21 person in that photograph.
22 A. That’s Vinnie.
23 Q. Do you remember where it was that you met
24 Vinnie for the first time.
25 A. It was at the taping at Hamid’s house.
26 MR. SNEDDON: All right. I think we can go
27 back to the regular lights, Your Honor.
28 Q. Now, you’ve told the ladies and gentlemen of 1121
 

 
1 the jury that you were at the Calabasas Inn for a
2 number of days.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did you do there. Tell me what -- some
5 of the things you did.
6 A. We got our passports and visas.
7 Q. Did -- you say “we.” Who’s “we”.
8 A. My brother, my sister and my mom.
9 Q. Did you do that -- were you alone when you
10 did that or did somebody go with you.
11 A. Frank and Vinnie were with us.
12 Q. Do you remember where you went to get the
13 passports.
14 A. I think it’s -- I don’t remember where the
15 building was. But I remember where we got a pass --
16 our pictures.
17 Q. Where did you get your pictures taken.
18 A. At a Walgreen’s.
19 Q. Did -- were you with -- did you go to get a
20 visa.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And who went with you.
23 A. Frank and Vinnie.
24 Q. And anybody else.
25 A. My mom, my brother and my sister and me.
26 Q. While you were at the Calabasas Inn there,
27 did you go shopping.
28 A. Yes. 1122
 

 
1 Q. Where did you go shopping.
2 A. We went to some outlets. We shopped at a
3 Levis store, Club Banana store, and we shopped for
4 luggage.
5 Q. Did you know why you were shopping.
6 A. Because we were going to go to Brazil.
7 Q. And who told you you were going to go to
8 Brazil.
9 A. I think it was Frank. Because he wanted us
10 to -- he wanted it to be educational or something.
11 Q. Is that what he said.
12 A. Yeah, that’s what he was telling us.
13 Q. Did Frank say anything to you whether or not
14 the defendant, Michael Jackson, was going to go to
15 Brazil with you.
16 A. He said about four weeks after we were
17 there, then Michael was going to come.
18 Q. So it was going to be a long trip.
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Do you remember anything else about the time
21 that you stayed in Calabasas. Did you ever go to
22 the swimming pool.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Why.
25 A. We never had time to. Well, we never went
26 to the swimming pool.
27 Q. Did you -- during the time you were there,
28 do you know where Frank and Vinnie were staying. 1123
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where.
3 A. Down the hall from us.
4 Q. How do you know that.
5 A. Because we saw them.
6 Q. Tell us how that happened.
7 A. When we were -- when he set us up in our
8 room, we saw him walk back to his room.
9 Q. Did you ever see them on any other occasions
10 when they were in their room, or when you walked
11 past their room.
12 A. What. I don’t -- no.
13 Q. Okay. So when you came back -- so after you
14 were at Calabasas, where did you go after all that
15 was done, the things you’ve described.
16 A. We went back to the ranch.
17 Q. And who took you back to the ranch.
18 A. Frank.
19 Q. Now, at any time while you were at the
20 ranch, after you got back from this trip where you
21 were at -- not “trip,” but stay at Calabasas, okay.
22 Are you with me.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Did the subject of monitoring
25 telephones ever come up.
26 A. Monitoring telephones.
27 Q. Telephone calls, yeah.
28 A. There’s a way that we could listen in to 1124
 

 
1 people’s calls.
2 Q. How did you know that.
3 A. Michael showed us. Showed us.
4 Q. When did he show you that.
5 A. I think it was after the Calabasas that we
6 stood at.
7 Q. Were you present when he did that.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Tell us about it.
10 A. You just push “speaker” and “mute” -- I
11 don’t know, you just -- he showed us one day. And
12 we were listening to the guards’ conversation.
13 Q. With who.
14 A. I think he was talking to another guard, or
15 somebody. He was talking to somebody. But I don’t
16 remember.
17 Q. How many occasions did you see that happen,
18 with Mr. Jackson.
19 A. Two occasions.
20 MR. SNEDDON: May I have one moment, Your
21 Honor.
22 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
23 table.)
24 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Now, tell us,
25 where were these phones located in Mr. Jackson’s
26 room.
27 A. The master phone.
28 Q. The one that you’ve told us about. 1125
 

 
1 A. Oh. It’s located near the piano. On the
2 dresser near the piano.
3 Q. Now, you told us earlier that there was a
4 phone -- the time when you made crank calls --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- where was that phone.
7 A. The phone upstairs.
8 Q. Upstairs where.
9 A. In his bedroom.
10 Q. So these are different phones.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, how did it work that you could overhear
13 somebody’s conversation.
14 A. You push the “speaker” button, you push
15 “mute,” and then you pushed on the green light.
16 Q. How did you learn that.
17 A. From Michael.
18 Q. Which of the two phones was it that you
19 could monitor conversations on.
20 A. The one downstairs.
21 Q. All right. Now, are you familiar with a
22 movie called “The Devil’s Backbone”.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Where was it the first time you
25 saw that movie.
26 A. Upstairs.
27 Q. Upstairs where.
28 A. In his bedroom. 1126
 

 
1 Q. Whose bedroom.
2 A. Michael’s bedroom.
3 Q. And how many times have you seen that movie.
4 A. Three times.
5 Q. And where did you see it the other two
6 times.
7 A. In his bedroom.
8 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever say anything to you
9 about that movie.
10 A. There was one time, Frank was walking up,
11 and there was a girl on the movie -- or a movie, and
12 he just kept on saying “clitoris.”
13 Q. Who did.
14 A. Michael.
15 Q. Do you know what that means.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know what it means now.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know what it meant then.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, was there -- after you got back from
22 Calabasas - okay. --
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. -- was there ever an occasion where
25 anything else unusual happened between you and your
26 brother and the defendant, Michael Jackson.
27 A. Do you mean after staying at Cal -- what was
28 it. What was the question. 1127
 

 
1 Q. Yeah. Anything else unusual that you saw
2 about the defendant, Michael Jackson.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Pardon.
5 A. I don’t know.
6 Q. Do you ever recall an occasion where he
7 walked into the room and you and your brother were
8 on a bed.
9 A. Oh.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Just -- do you recall that
13 occasion, when you were sitting on the bed, and he
14 walked into the room.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
17 what you saw.
18 A. Me and my brother were watching a movie, and
19 Michael walked up naked. And he walked to the
20 corner of the room, picked up something. Me and my
21 brother were grossed out. And he sat on the bed and
22 he told us it was natural, and then he walked back
23 downstairs.
24 Q. Did either you or your brother say anything
25 to him. Let me break it up, because I don’t want to
26 get a compound problem here.
27 Did you say anything to him when he walked
28 in. 1128
 

 
1 A. I was just grossed out.
2 Q. No, but did you say anything to him.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did brother say anything to him in your
5 presence.
6 A. No.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: The answer was.
10 A. “No.”
11 Q. How long was it that Mr. Jackson was in the
12 room with you and your brother naked.
13 A. Probably about two minutes.
14 Q. Did you see anything else about Mr. Jackson
15 at that time.
16 A. No.
17 Q. When you say he was naked, what was he
18 wearing, if anything.
19 A. Nothing.
20 Q. Totally naked.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you could see his private parts.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you see anything about his private
25 parts, one way or the other.
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
27 THE COURT: Overruled.
28 THE WITNESS: What. 1129
 

 
1 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: I asked you if you saw his
2 private parts.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Anything unusual about his private parts.
5 A. Oh, he had a hard-on.
6 Q. That’s what you call it.
7 A. Well, that’s what Dr. Katz called it, so --
8 Q. What do you call it.
9 A. Erection.
10 Q. Either way, that’s what you saw.
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SNEDDON: All right. I think we can get
13 this in before the break, Your Honor, or at least
14 part of it.
15 Q. I’m going to show you a series of
16 photographs and ask you --
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. -- ask you to see if you can identify
19 these photographs.
20 Okay. Now, I’m going to ask you questions
21 about each one of these. All right.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. But I’m just going to ask you questions to
24 lay the foundation that they’re accurate, and then
25 we’ll discuss what they are later. All right.
26 A. All right.
27 Q. So, make sure you don’t tell us what’s in
28 the photograph until I’ve properly authenticated it. 1130
 

 
1 All right.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Thanks, Star.
4 Let’s start with the photograph that’s
5 marked as People’s 91 for identification purposes.
6 Do you recognize what’s depicted in that photograph.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that -- is the -- are the items that are
9 depicted in that photograph an accurate depiction as
10 you know them to be.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Why don’t you turn that one
13 over. And we’re going to have to do this through
14 all of them, okay.
15 The next one’s 93, I believe.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. With regard to 93, is that an accurate
18 depiction of the area as you know it to be.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the next one is 92; is that correct.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that the right number.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. And is that an accurate
25 depiction of the area as you know it to be.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. All right. And the next one is 90; is that
28 correct. 1131
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of the
3 area as you know it to be.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And the next one is what number. 69.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area as
8 you know it to be.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And 55, is that the next one.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is that an accurate depiction.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what is the number on the next one.
15 A. 58.
16 Q. And 58, is that an accurate depiction --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- of the area as you know it to be.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. And the next one is 158.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of the
23 area as you know it to be.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the next one is 165.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And is that an accurate depiction of the
28 area as you know it to be. 1132
 

 
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And 71.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recognize that.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that an accurate depiction.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. 72.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that an accurate depiction.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Turn that one over.
13 And 74, is that the next one.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area as
16 you know it to be.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. Turn that over.
19 Now, the next two should be 75; is that
20 correct.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That’s already in evidence. So just turn
23 that over for right now.
24 And is the next one 76. Correct.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And that’s already in evidence, so why don’t
27 you turn that one over.
28 And the next one is 78. 1133
 

 
1 A. 77.
2 Q. 77. I’m sorry. I was just checking.
3 Do you recognize that area.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area as
6 you know it to be.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. And 78.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area as
11 you know it to be.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And 79.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area as
16 you know it to be.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the next one, I believe, is 94, correct.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area as
21 you know it to be.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the next one is 97.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And then 95.
28 A. Yes. 1134
 

 
1 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area as
2 you know it to be.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And 96.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the area.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Thank you.
9 That’s the last one, correct.
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, at this time I was
12 going to propose that we show those photographs to
13 the jury, but I see -- I believe it’s close to the
14 break time.
15 THE COURT: A few more minutes.
16 MR. SNEDDON: Do you want me to turn out the
17 lights and get started.
18 All right. Fine.
19 I move that all those be admitted into
20 evidence.
21 THE COURT: Any objection.
22 MR. MESEREAU: No objection, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: They’re admitted.
24 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. We’re now
25 looking at the exhibit marked -- what -- do you have
26 91 in front of you.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. All right. Tell us what 91 is. 1135
 

 
1 A. It’s Michael’s downstairs bedroom.
2 Q. Now, do you see anything in that photograph
3 that is different than it was when you were there.
4 A. That photo wasn’t there.
5 Q. The photo against the far wall.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Of the child.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Anything else.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Let’s move to -- did we establish
12 where this was, 91, in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where is it.
15 A. It’s Michael’s downstairs.
16 Q. Downstairs to what.
17 A. Bedroom.
18 Q. Now, let’s move over to 93. Is that 93 that
19 you have in front of you.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. 93, do you recognize that.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What is that.
24 A. That’s the downstairs bedroom. Downstairs.
25 Q. Is there anything in this part of the
26 photograph that was different from when you were
27 there.
28 A. No. 1136
 

 
1 Q. All right. Let’s move to 92.
2 All right. Do you have 92 in front of you.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that the same one that’s on the screen.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Is there anything in this
7 photograph that’s different from the time when you
8 were there.
9 A. Or, wait a minute. That isn’t right. 92.
10 Q. Show me what 92 is.
11 A. That one’s 90.
12 Q. All right. Let’s go back one, then. The
13 next one.
14 Let me have that for just a second, Star.
15 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
16 table.)
17 MR. SNEDDON: It’s not in there. Okay. All
18 right.
19 Q. 92, I guess we didn’t get it into the Power
20 Point. So just do that on your own. Describe to us
21 what 92 is.
22 A. It’s the downstairs of Michael’s bedroom.
23 Q. Okay. Anything about that photograph, 92,
24 that’s different from when you were there.
25 A. Uhh --
26 Q. That’s a different photograph. Just tell
27 us.
28 A. Right next to the T.V. there’s -- there used 1137
 

 
1 to be, like, a jukebox thing.
2 Q. And it’s not there now in that photograph.
3 A. No.
4 THE COURT: All right. Let’s take our break.
5 (Recess taken.)
6 THE COURT: Go ahead.
7 MR. SNEDDON: And we’re going to continue
8 with the photographs. Thank you.
9 Q. All right. Would you tell us what No. 90
10 is.
11 A. It’s the downstairs of Michael’s bedroom.
12 Q. And is there anything different about this
13 photograph, People’s 90, than when you saw it when
14 you were there.
15 A. Should be, like, the music playing thing,
16 juke box. Where all the boxes were. And that’s it.
17 Q. Could you show the ladies and gentlemen what
18 area you’re talking about.
19 So it’s the area right next to the red seat
20 with the child upside down.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So those boxes weren’t there then.
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. Why don’t you turn that
25 photograph over.
26 And let’s go to the next one, which should
27 be People’s No. 69; is that correct.
28 A. Yes. 1138
 

 
1 Q. All right. Do you recognize People’s 69.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is 69 the same one that’s up on the board
4 there behind you.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, tell us what 69 is.
7 A. It’s the downstairs room of Michael’s. And
8 that’s the master phone, right there. Right there.
9 Q. And that’s the one you talked about earlier
10 in your testimony.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. And just to the left of that is
13 a doorway entrance. Do you know what room that
14 enters into.
15 A. It enters into, like, a bathtub almost.
16 Bathtub.
17 Q. All right. And is there anything different
18 in this photograph than when you were there.
19 A. The extra telephone wasn’t there.
20 Q. What’s that.
21 A. The extra telephone wasn’t there.
22 Q. So you’re talking about the one that’s to
23 the right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You see the all-white one on the photograph.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. All right. Let’s go to the next photograph,
28 if we can. What is the number in front of you. 1139
 

 
1 A. 55.
2 Q. All right. Will you tell us about 55.
3 A. That’s the cash register.
4 Q. Lean into the microphone, please.
5 A. That’s the cash register, and -- in
6 Michael’s room downstairs.
7 Q. All right. And through the door, what leads
8 through that room.
9 A. It leads to, like, the Jacuzzi tub.
10 Q. All right. Do you see anything in that
11 photograph that’s different than when you were
12 there.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Let’s go to the next photograph, if we
15 could. And is that No. 58.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Do you recognize 58.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Tell us about 58.
20 A. That’s the inside -- that’s --
21 Q. Inside of what.
22 A. Michael’s room. Downstairs in the -- it’s
23 the room all the way to the left, inside of it.
24 Q. Do you have a name for that room.
25 A. It’s probably a bathroom or rest room.
26 Q. Did anything occur in this room while you
27 were there.
28 A. There’s a black suitcase. 1140
 

 
1 Q. What about it.
2 A. It had pornography in there.
3 Q. In this room.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Let’s put that down for just a
6 second.
7 And the next number.
8 A. 158.
9 Q. All right. What’s 158.
10 A. It’s a close-up on the master telephone.
11 Q. Is this the telephone you were talking
12 about.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Yes. And is that -- anything different in
15 that photograph than when you were there.
16 A. No.
17 Q. All right. Let’s go to the next one. And
18 what is that.
19 A. It’s the same thing. But different angle.
20 Q. Now, can you tell us -- could you just
21 illustrate to the jury, using the laser, if you
22 would, how it worked that somebody could overhear a
23 conversation of another party.
24 First of all, how would you know somebody
25 else is using the phone, to your knowledge.
26 A. A green light will light up.
27 Q. Where would the green light light up.
28 You’re indicating on a row of buttons to 1141
 

 
1 the -- is that correct.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then what would happen when the light
4 would light up. What would you have to do.
5 A. You would have to push “Speaker,” and then
6 you’ll push “Mute.”
7 Q. Careful with that razor.
8 A. And then you’ll push “Mute,” and then you’ll
9 push on the button that’s lit up.
10 Q. And then what.
11 A. And then you can listen to the conversation.
12 Q. All right. Okay. The next photograph.
13 A. 71.
14 Q. Yes. What is that.
15 A. This is downstairs, Michael’s bedroom.
16 Q. All right. And have you been in that room.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is there anything different about that room,
19 as you look at it now, than when you were there.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Let’s go to the next one. What number is
22 that. 78.
23 A. 72.
24 Q. 72. Can’t read my own handwriting.
25 Tell me about 72.
26 A. That’s the stairway leading up to Michael’s
27 bed area.
28 Q. Anything different about that photograph. 1142
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Than when you were there.
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. Let’s move to 74. Do you
5 recognize that.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What’s that.
8 A. That’s the stairway leading to Michael’s
9 bedroom.
10 Q. Is there anything different in that
11 photograph than when you were there.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What.
14 A. This wasn’t here.
15 Q. That little gate.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Anything else.
18 A. And -- that’s it.
19 Q. Okay. 75. Do you recognize that.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Tell us what that is.
22 A. This is Michael’s bed area.
23 Q. Now, is there anything in that photograph
24 that’s different than when you were there.
25 A. No.
26 Q. I’m sorry. I didn’t hear you.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Okay. All right. Put that one down, then, 1143
 

 
1 if you would.
2 76.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you recognize that.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is that.
7 A. That’s Michael’s bedroom.
8 Q. Is there anything different in this
9 photograph than when you were there.
10 A. No. Except the crib wasn’t there and the
11 computer wasn’t there either.
12 Q. What are you calling a computer.
13 So the item that’s just to the left of the
14 crib.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the crib is in the far right-hand side
17 in the middle of the photograph.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Anything else.
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right. Let’s go to the next photograph,
22 77.
23 All right. 77. Do you recognize that.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell us what it is.
26 A. That’s Michael’s bedroom.
27 Q. All right. You’ve already told us that the
28 crib and the computer weren’t there. Is there 1144
 

 
1 anything else different in this photograph that’s
2 different than when you were there, in People’s 77.
3 A. All this stuff wasn’t here.
4 Q. What stuff. You’re talking about the items
5 that are on the floor.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. To the right-hand side of the photograph.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I see in the back, there is what appears to
10 be some kind of a statue or a mannequin of some
11 kind.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you see that.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was that there when you were there.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was it in that location or in another
18 location.
19 A. It was in that location.
20 Q. Was there anything different about the
21 mannequin when you saw it than when it’s depicted in
22 that photograph.
23 A. It had hair.
24 Q. What kind of hair.
25 A. Braided hair.
26 Q. All right. Let’s go on to 78. Now, look at
27 that. Is that 78.
28 A. Yes. 1145
 

 
1 Q. I mean back there.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Now, anything else in this
4 photograph that you haven’t already told us about
5 that was different than from when you were there.
6 A. There used to be a computer table right
7 here.
8 Q. And what about the black part, the -- was
9 that there.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: “No,” what.
14 A. It wasn’t there.
15 Q. Anything else.
16 A. The stuff in front of it, it wasn’t there
17 either.
18 Q. What stuff in front of it. Could you show
19 the jury.
20 You’re indicating the items at the bottom of
21 the photograph on the floor; is that correct.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, on this particular photograph, there’s
24 a screen. What appears to be a screen. Do you see
25 that.
26 A. Uh-huh.
27 Q. Do you know how that screen works.
28 A. It comes down. 1146
 

 
1 Q. Do you know how it comes down; I mean, how
2 you activate it to come down or go up.
3 A. Not really.
4 Q. Was that screen down the entire time you
5 were there or was it up on some occasions.
6 A. It was up on some occasions.
7 Q. All right. Let’s move on to the next
8 photograph. And that number is.
9 A. 79.
10 Q. All right. Now, 79. Do you see anything in
11 that photograph that’s different from when you were
12 there.
13 A. All this stuff wasn’t here.
14 Q. All right. Show us.
15 So the -- you’re indicating from -- was the
16 chair there.
17 A. No.
18 Q. And the paintings or photos, were they
19 there.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Those are the items at the bottom of the
22 photograph below the screen, correct.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of
25 the jury that there was a computer table there.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Or a table of some kind.
28 A. Yes. 1147
 

 
1 Q. Could you describe to the ladies and
2 gentlemen of the jury what that table looked like.
3 A. It had drawers, and then it had an opening.
4 Q. Okay. How many legs did it have or --
5 A. Four legs.
6 Q. And what was on top of it.
7 A. A computer.
8 Q. What kind of a computer.
9 A. An old computer. It was pretty big.
10 Q. Sorry.
11 A. It was big.
12 Q. All right. Let’s move on to the next
13 photograph.
14 What’s People’s 94.
15 A. That’s a toy room.
16 Q. Okay. Is there anything different about
17 that than when you were there.
18 A. No.
19 Q. How about the next one. Is that 97.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What about 97. Anything different about
22 that than when you were there.
23 A. There used to be a rocking horse.
24 Q. Where. Right where that pinkish item is.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Just below R2-D2.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Anything else. 1148
 

 
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. The next photograph, what number is
3 that.
4 A. 95.
5 Q. Anything different about 95.
6 A. No.
7 Q. How about 96.
8 A. No.
9 Q. All the same. Anything different.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Why don’t you put that up, then.
12 Now, before we move on to the next area, I
13 neglected to do something earlier.
14 We can turn the lights on, Your Honor.
15 Your Honor, I -- oh, Counsel.
16 Okay. I’m going to hand you an exhibit
17 that’s part of the exhibit that’s already in
18 evidence that’s 260, and ask if you recognize that.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you recognize the person in it.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who’s that.
23 A. Me.
24 Q. Were you present when the information was
25 filled out on that document.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Okay. I’m going to ask you a few questions
28 about it in just a second. 1149
 

 
1 261, do you recognize that.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Pardon.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you recognize the photograph of the
6 person in that document.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who’s that.
9 A. Me.
10 Q. Were you present when the information was
11 filled out.
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. I’ll have to ask you a few
14 questions now.
15 We’re going to change over to the Elmo, Your
16 Honor.
17 Now, 261 is an exhibit that’s in evidence,
18 Star. With regard to the writing on that particular
19 exhibit, did you place any of that on there at any
20 time.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Underneath your photograph, which is on the
23 left-hand side of that particular exhibit, is that
24 your signature.
25 A. No.
26 Q. On the area -- do you have your little red
27 thing.
28 A. Yes. 1150
 

 
1 Q. Okay. I’m going to ask you to use it.
2 Straight across from your photograph, all the way
3 over on the right-hand side, there’s a box. That
4 box right there, okay. And it says “Italy” and
5 “France.” Did you ever hear anything about you
6 going to Italy or France.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Now, let’s take the next document,
9 which is 261.
10 Now, the photograph, do you recognize the
11 photograph.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who is that.
14 A. Me.
15 Q. And is that your handwriting on that
16 particular document.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you present when that information was
19 filled out.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know what that document is.
22 A. Not really.
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 We can turn the lights on, Your Honor.
25 Okay. I have another exhibit I’d like to
26 have marked as 470 for identification purposes.
27 There’s no edges on it.
28 THE CLERK: Here’s another one. 1151
 

 
1 MR. SNEDDON: All right. For the record,
2 Your Honor, 470 is a clear plastic bag with the
3 number “122980” in white on the front of it. And
4 it’s been marked 470 for identification. I’ve shown
5 it to counsel.
6 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me, Your Honor. Could
7 I ask that the prosecutor and the witness be
8 admonished to follow your order with respect to
9 describing the contents.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
12 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to show you 470.
13 Recognize that.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What is it.
16 A. This is the suitcase that held all the
17 pornography in it.
18 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; move to strike.
19 THE COURT: It’s stricken. The pre-trial
20 order requires that you and the witness refer to
21 adult material as “adult material,” not the
22 conclusion.
23 MR. SNEDDON: Okay. I don’t even know --
24 THE COURT: There are a couple words that you
25 could use.
26 MR. SNEDDON: I’m not sure he would know any
27 of those words, but I’ll -- could I have a second to
28 talk to him about it, then. I didn’t know that 1152
 

 
1 meant to the witness, because that would be me
2 telling him words, but -- okay. Let me just....
3 (Whereupon, there was an off-the-record
4 discussion held between the witness and Mr.
5 Sneddon.)
6 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Where was that
7 exhibit the first time you saw it.
8 A. It was -- it was in the downstairs, near the
9 bathtub that was like a Jacuzzi. It was near there.
10 Q. All right.
11 THE COURT: Just a minute, Counsel. I want
12 to tell the jury something about our last little
13 discussion, because I don’t want to leave this up in
14 the air like that.
15 The -- the reason that the witness and the
16 attorneys are to refer to this material as “adult
17 material” - or there’s another word I used, I can’t
18 remember now - instead of “pornography,” is that
19 “pornography” really is a legal conclusion that the
20 trier of fact is the person who decides what the
21 nature of the material is.
22 So by having the witness and the attorneys
23 refer to it in a somewhat neutral time frame, it
24 stops any conclusions from being made that would
25 bias the jury. That’s the whole purpose.
26 Go ahead, Counsel.
27 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Who was with you when you
28 saw that suitcase for the first time. 1153
 

 
1 A. Me, my brother, Aldo, and Michael.
2 Q. The defendant.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And who -- how was it that you were actually
5 shown that suitcase.
6 A. Uhh --
7 Q. Tell us what happened.
8 A. Just walked in the room and it was open. It
9 was -- there used to be a couch right there.
10 Q. Yeah.
11 A. And -- well, it wasn’t really a couch. It
12 was like a chair. And it was on there, and it was
13 open.
14 Q. All right. And then what happened.
15 A. Michael just started to show us magazines.
16 Q. You say “show” you. Tell us what he did.
17 A. He handed them to us.
18 Q. All right. And did you look at them.
19 A. Yes, with him.
20 Q. And did you look at them one at a time or
21 did everybody have a different one at a different
22 time. How did it happen. Tell us what happened.
23 A. We all looked at them one at a time.
24 Q. Did anybody make any comments about
25 anything.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Do you remember how many of them you saw.
28 A. A couple. 1154
 

 
1 Q. How long was it that you were there going
2 through them.
3 A. I don’t know. Probably ten minutes.
4 Q. Now, when did that take place, when you saw
5 these for the first -- that suitcase for the first
6 time.
7 A. When.
8 Q. Yeah.
9 A. I think after the Calabasas hotel.
10 Q. Now, I have one other exhibit that is No. 86
11 marked for identification purposes.
12 Now, I’m going to show you this in just a
13 second, but I want to talk to you a little bit more.
14 Did you ever see that black suitcase that’s
15 been marked as People’s 470 before. After that,
16 after the time that you discussed --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where.
19 A. It was upstairs in his bed area.
20 Q. Where.
21 A. In his -- where his bed was.
22 Q. And where in his bedroom.
23 A. Near the T.V.
24 Q. All right. And where were you.
25 A. What do you mean.
26 Q. Where were you in the bedroom.
27 A. On the bed.
28 Q. All right. Who was with you. 1155
 

 
1 A. Aldo, my brother and Michael.
2 Q. And where was the suitcase located. I mean,
3 how did -- did you ever look at the suitcase, inside
4 of it.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What happened.
7 A. There was adult material in there.
8 Q. All right. But how did it get opened.
9 A. Michael pulled it out.
10 Q. All right. Tell us what he did.
11 A. He picked it up, sat on the bed and opened
12 it.
13 Q. And then what.
14 A. He pulled the magazine out and started
15 showing us.
16 Q. How many magazines do you think you saw that
17 time.
18 A. Four. Three. I don’t know.
19 Q. Did you look through the entire magazines.
20 A. No. It was probably a section or something
21 like that.
22 Q. What did you see in the magazines.
23 A. Nude females.
24 Q. What.
25 A. Nude females.
26 Q. Do you remember the names of any of the
27 titles of the magazines that you saw.
28 A. “Barely Legal” and “Playboy.” 1156
 

 
1 Q. Were there others that you saw besides that,
2 or are those the only ones you saw.
3 A. Those are the only ones I remember.
4 Q. I’m going to show you a photograph marked as
5 People’s 86 for identification purposes.
6 And that’s -- first of all, I’m going to
7 move that People’s 470 be admitted into evidence,
8 Your Honor.
9 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
10 THE COURT: We’ll take that up separately.
11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. People’s 86.
12 Do you recognize that.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of what it
15 represents.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. I’m going to ask you some
18 questions about People’s 86.
19 And put it on the board, Your Honor. I move
20 it be admitted into evidence.
21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Foundation; and
22 authenticity and relevance.
23 THE COURT: On 86.
24 MR. SNEDDON: Yes. I asked him and he said
25 it accurately depicted the materials.
26 THE COURT: I’m not sure. I haven’t seen
27 the --
28 MR. SNEDDON: In your book, it’s No. 86, 1157
 

 
1 Your Honor --
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. SNEDDON: -- in your photographs.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Also 352, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: I don’t think that’s an adequate
6 foundation for that particular photograph, that it
7 accurately depicts what it is. You need a further
8 foundation.
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Star, the materials that
10 are depicted in that photograph, People’s 86, do you
11 see those.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recognize any of those.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where do you recognize them from.
16 A. The black suitcase.
17 Q. And which time.
18 A. The first and second time.
19 Q. Does that photograph represent the items
20 that you saw with the defendant, Michael Jackson.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In his bedroom and in his Jacuzzi, or in his
23 bathroom.
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. SNEDDON: I move it be admitted, Your
26 Honor.
27 THE COURT: All right. That is an adequate
28 foundation. 1158
 

 
1 Your 352 was on what basis, Counsel.
2 MR. MESEREAU: He didn’t identify some of
3 what’s in that photograph, Your Honor, at all.
4 THE COURT: I found that the foundation is
5 adequate now. You had a 352 objection.
6 MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
7 THE COURT: What was that.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Well, basically because he
9 didn’t identify it, and because after describing
10 what he said was there, and then looking at the
11 photo and saying it accurately depicts it, he didn’t
12 identify everything, I think basically it’s
13 prejudicial and irrelevant.
14 THE COURT: All right. The probative value
15 exceeds the prejudicial --
16 THE DEFENDANT: I can’t hear.
17 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
18 THE DEFENDANT: I can’t hear you.
19 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, it’s a little hard
20 for Mr. Jackson to hear you.
21 THE DEFENDANT: Please speak up.
22 THE COURT: Yes. The probative value of
23 Exhibit 86 exceeds any prejudicial effects, and so
24 it’s admitted.
25 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you.
26 THE COURT: Sorry.
27 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Star, the exhibit that we
28 have on the board up there, the suitcase, and it’s 1159
 

 
1 open and displayed, are those among the items that
2 you saw with Mr. Jackson.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do they represent the things that you saw
5 with him when he took the magazines out.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. On the occasion that you saw the
8 materials from this suitcase that are depicted in
9 this photograph - okay. - who else was present.
10 A. My brother and Aldo, me, and Michael.
11 Q. Do you recall how many -- how much time
12 elapsed between the first time you saw the materials
13 downstairs till the time you saw them upstairs.
14 A. A few days.
15 Q. And did you see how the suitcase got from
16 downstairs to upstairs.
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you saw the suitcase in the bedroom,
19 upstairs, on the second occasion, was it open or was
20 it closed.
21 A. It was open.
22 Q. And where was it on the floor, or where was
23 it in the room.
24 A. On the floor.
25 Q. And where.
26 A. Right next to the T.V.
27 Q. So when you say “it’s open,” tell me what
28 you mean by “it’s open.” 1160
 

 
1 A. It was cracked.
2 Q. What do you mean by that.
3 A. It was cracked open.
4 Q. Do you see the briefcase in the exhibit as
5 we see it in the courtroom.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Was it open in that condition.
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. Was the lid up or down when you saw it in
10 the bedroom.
11 A. It was -- it was like this, standing up.
12 And it was cracked open.
13 Q. Oh, the briefcase.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Oh, I see. So it wasn’t in the same
16 position that it’s shown in this photograph.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, how about when you saw it downstairs.
19 A. It was like that, but it was closed.
20 Q. Like what.
21 A. Standing straight up, but it was closed,
22 leaning up against something.
23 Q. In the bathroom area.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And how did it get opened.
26 A. What do you mean.
27 Q. Well, you said it was closed. You looked at
28 the material -- 1161
 

 
1 A. The first time it was closed. The second
2 time it was cracked open.
3 Q. Okay. We can take that down.
4 THE BAILIFF: Do you want to go ahead and
5 push “Black Screen”.
6 MR. SNEDDON: Counsel.
7 THE BAILIFF: Judge, can you push “Black
8 Screen”.
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Hang onto that for just a
10 second.
11 All right. Do you recognize the photograph
12 I’ve just handed you, which is People’s 153. Is
13 that the right number on it.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. Do you recognize that.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is that an accurate depiction of the -- of
18 what it purports to represent.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As you saw it when you were there.
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. SNEDDON: All right. I move that 153 be
23 admitted into evidence.
24 MR. MESEREAU: No objection, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: It’s admitted.
26 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Star, would you
27 tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what 153
28 is. 1162
 

 
1 A. It’s a mannequin.
2 Q. And where was the mannequin located in the
3 room when you saw it.
4 A. To the corner.
5 Q. And with regard to this particular
6 mannequin, did you ever see anything, relative to
7 the defendant in this case, occur.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
10 what you saw.
11 A. He was -- one time -- he was jerking around
12 and he grabbed the mannequin, and he was pretending
13 like he was having intercourse with it.
14 Q. And where did that occur.
15 A. On the bed. He was fully clothed. He was
16 acting like he was humping.
17 Q. I didn’t hear what you said.
18 A. He was acting like he was humping it.
19 Q. Now, who else was in the bedroom when this
20 happened.
21 A. Aldo, my brother and me.
22 Q. And do you remember how this -- how it
23 started or what happened, or were there --
24 A. I don’t even remember. I’m sorry.
25 Q. Did the defendant say anything while he was
26 doing it.
27 A. He was laughing.
28 Q. And how long did the whole episode last. 1163
 

 
1 A. Probably five seconds.
2 Q. Okay. Do you want to put that down.
3 Star, did you -- can you tell us whether or
4 not the topic of masturbation ever came up in any
5 conversations with the defendant.
6 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, “whether or not” makes
9 it an open-ended question. It doesn’t suggest the
10 answer. I don’t mean to argue with the Court, but I
11 mean --
12 MR. MESEREAU: It does not, Your Honor.
13 That’s leading.
14 THE COURT: Could you rephrase the question.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Yes, Your Honor. I can do
16 that.
17 Q. Star, did you ever have any conversations
18 with the defendant about any other sexual matters.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. About what.
21 A. Masturbation.
22 Q. All right. Will you tell the ladies and
23 gentlemen of the jury --
24 A. I don’t know how the topic came about, but
25 he was asking me if I ever masturbated. And I said,
26 “No.” And he said --
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. There’s no
28 question pending. He just went off. 1164
 

 
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 MR. SNEDDON: I’ll frame one, Your Honor.
3 Q. Okay. So did you have a conversation.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Now, would you tell the ladies
6 and gentlemen of the jury, where was it.
7 A. It was -- this was when another child was
8 here. His name was Rio.
9 Q. I can’t hear you.
10 A. This was in Michael’s bedroom.
11 Q. And who else was present, if anyone.
12 A. Rio, my brother, and that was it. And me.
13 Q. And to your knowledge, who is Rio.
14 A. I don’t know.
15 Q. Somebody you met at Mr. Jackson’s.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you recall when this was in terms of
18 before or after you went to Calabasas.
19 A. It was after.
20 Q. And do you recall whether it was in the
21 daytime or at nighttime.
22 A. Nighttime.
23 Q. All right. Would you tell us what was said,
24 what the defendant said.
25 A. He asked me if I masturbated. And I said,
26 “No.” He -- he -- then he said to me that,
27 “Everyone does it. You should try it. It’s okay,”
28 and all this stuff. 1165
 

 
1 Q. Were you the only one he asked that question
2 of.
3 A. Yes. Well, yeah. Yes.
4 Q. And when you said, “No,” did he say anything
5 else.
6 A. Yeah. He said, “It’s okay,” and “Everyone
7 does it,” and “You should try it.” That’s what he
8 said.
9 Q. Was there anything else said besides that.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you -- when you came back from
12 Calabasas --
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. -- okay. - till the time that you left -
15 all right. - where did you sleep.
16 A. In Michael’s room. And towards the end, I
17 slept in the guest unit.
18 Q. And was there any drinking that went on
19 during that period of time.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And who was drinking.
22 A. Mostly my brother and Michael.
23 Q. You say “mostly.” Did you drink.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On the occasion that you were there with --
26 in the room with Mr. Jackson and your brother, and
27 this person that you know -- is it Rio.
28 A. Yes. 1166
 

 
1 Q. -- were you drinking then.
2 A. I think so.
3 Q. Do you remember what you were drinking.
4 A. Just wine.
5 Q. Now, on the evenings after you came back
6 from Calabasas and until you stopped sleeping in
7 Mr. Jackson’s room, where did your brother sleep.
8 A. Michael’s room.
9 Q. During that period of time, was there an
10 incident where you saw Mr. Jackson come into bed
11 with you and your brother.
12 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 You may answer.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was --
16 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Just -- just -- you can
17 only answer “Yes” or “No.”
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. Now, you said there was an
20 incident. Where were you prior to the time that
21 Mr. Jackson came into the room.
22 A. Sleeping.
23 Q. Where.
24 A. On the bed.
25 Q. And where was your brother.
26 A. Right next to me.
27 Q. All right. We’ve seen that bed here in the
28 photographs. Okay. 1167
 

 
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. And when we’re looking straight at the bed
3 towards the back of the wall - okay. - where were
4 you located on the bed.
5 A. All the way to the right.
6 Q. And where was your brother.
7 A. In the middle.
8 Q. And were you under the covers.
9 A. Under the covers.
10 Q. Over the covers.
11 A. Under the covers.
12 Q. And how were you dressed.
13 A. In PJ’s.
14 Q. Do these PJ’s -- describe them.
15 A. Sweat pants.
16 Q. I’m sorry.
17 A. Sweat pants and a shirt.
18 Q. All right. And do you recall what your
19 brother was wearing.
20 A. Not really.
21 Q. Now, did you see -- tell us what happened.
22 A. I was sleeping. It was in the morning. And
23 I saw Michael come up, and I tried to say hi, but I
24 couldn’t. He got in bed. Started scooting over
25 closer and closer to my brother. And for a time he
26 didn’t stop until I moved, and then he stopped.
27 Q. And what happened when he heard you move.
28 A. He stopped. 1168
 

 
1 Q. Okay. Did you see whether or not he did
2 anything.
3 A. No. I was -- no.
4 Q. Okay. Okay. Star, we’re almost done.
5 Okay.
6 Now, some night when you were at -- at the
7 ranch - all right. - did you go up to Mr. Jackson’s
8 bedroom by yourself.
9 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Where had you been just
13 prior to that.
14 A. I was heading to the theater.
15 Q. Where.
16 A. I was heading to the theater.
17 Q. Why were you going to the theater.
18 A. To get some chocolate.
19 Q. How did you get down there.
20 A. The golf cart.
21 Q. Did you get some chocolate.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what did you do when you came back.
24 A. I was heading to Michael’s room to go to
25 sleep.
26 Q. All right. Would you tell the ladies and
27 gentlemen of the jury what you did when you got to
28 the house. 1169
 

 
1 A. Um, I went through the door.
2 Q. Which door.
3 A. The first door. The first door. And then
4 the second door, it was kind of -- I don’t know, it
5 was, like, kind of locked. And so I pushed on it
6 till it opened, and then --
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, Your Honor. Could
8 we have a time. Vague as to time.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 Go ahead.
11 THE WITNESS: So I went upstairs, and --
12 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Let’s go back. You were at
13 the door, and the door what.
14 A. The door was kind of locked, so I pushed it,
15 and it opened. So I went halfway to where the
16 computer table used to be, and I saw directly into
17 the bed. And I stopped. And my brother was outside
18 of the covers. And I saw Michael’s left hand in my
19 brother’s underwears and I saw his right hand in his
20 underwears, so -- so I --
21 Q. Let’s just stop there for a second -
22 okay. --
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. -- and ask you some questions.
25 Why were you coming back to the room that
26 night, after you’d gone down to get the chocolate.
27 A. To go to sleep.
28 Q. When you got to the point on the stairs 1170
 

 
1 where you saw your brother and Mr. Jackson on the
2 bed - okay. - when you’re looking at the bed, just
3 like we saw it on the photograph here - what side of
4 the bed was the defendant on.
5 A. Left side.
6 Q. And what side was your brother on.
7 A. Right side.
8 Q. And what position was Mr. Jackson in.
9 A. On his back. On his back.
10 Q. And what position was your brother in.
11 A. He was curled up, looking to the left. He
12 was curled up facing left.
13 Q. Now, would that be looking towards Mr.
14 Jackson or away from Mr. Jackson.
15 A. Away.
16 Q. Now, at that time, could you see what the
17 defendant was wearing.
18 A. Socks, underwears and an undershirt.
19 Q. Now, could you tell what kind of underwear
20 it was.
21 A. No.
22 Q. I mean -- I’m sorry.
23 A. No.
24 Q. With regard to your brother, what was he
25 wearing.
26 A. I can’t quite remember what he was wearing.
27 I’m not --
28 Q. Do you remember what you could see of him. 1171
 

 
1 Was there part of him that he didn’t have anything
2 on.
3 A. Yeah, I know he had a shirt and -- he had
4 his socks. I think he had pants or underwears on.
5 I don’t remember.
6 Q. All right. Now, you said you saw “his
7 hand.” Whose hands are you talking about.
8 A. Michael’s.
9 Q. All right. And where were his hands.
10 A. Left hand was in my brother’s pants and
11 right hand was in his pants.
12 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and
13 answered.
14 THE COURT: Overruled. You may proceed.
15 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Now, when you say “in his
16 pants,” and who are you talking about.
17 A. Michael.
18 Q. All right. When you saw that, did you see
19 what, if anything, he was doing.
20 A. He was masturbating.
21 Q. What do you mean by that.
22 A. He was rubbing himself.
23 Q. And how could you tell that.
24 A. Because he had his hand in his pants. And
25 he was stroking up and down.
26 Q. Did you see anything else about the
27 defendant while he was doing that.
28 A. No. 1172
 

 
1 Q. What else did you see.
2 A. That’s all.
3 Q. Could you tell whether Mr. Jackson had his
4 eyes open or closed.
5 A. He had his eyes closed.
6 Q. Could you tell whether or not your brother
7 was asleep or not.
8 A. He was asleep.
9 Q. How do you know that.
10 A. Because he was kind of snoring.
11 Q. I can’t hear you. You’re going to have to
12 talk into that mike.
13 A. He was kind of snoring.
14 Q. Now, on this particular occasion, how long
15 did you stay there watching.
16 A. Couple seconds.
17 Q. Well, how long is that.
18 A. Four.
19 Q. What were the lighting conditions like in
20 the room.
21 A. The stairs were only lit, and the rest
22 was -- nothing else was -- had lights on. It was
23 just the stairs had lights.
24 Q. So you saw the photographs earlier that we
25 showed that had the lights on over the bed, correct.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Were those lights on or off.
28 A. Off. 1173
 

 
1 Q. When you looked into the room, did you see
2 any alcohol.
3 A. Um --
4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: I don’t think so.
7 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: So what was your reaction
8 to what you saw.
9 A. I didn’t know what to do.
10 Q. I’m sorry.
11 A. I didn’t know what to do. I just went back
12 to the guest units where my sister was sleeping.
13 Q. What guest room did you stay in.
14 A. I don’t remember. But my sister was
15 sleeping in one guest room. And I went to the one
16 that she was in.
17 Q. Did you see anything like that occur on any
18 other occasion.
19 A. Yes, a second occasion.
20 Q. When.
21 A. It was probably just driving around; and
22 same thing.
23 Q. No, I meant in relationship to the first
24 one. How many days, if any, elapsed.
25 A. Two days.
26 Q. All right. Where were you that night.
27 A. Probably driving around in the golf cart.
28 And I came back -- 1174
 

 
1 Q. Now, you say “probably.” Do you remember.
2 A. Not really what I was doing.
3 Q. Pardon.
4 A. I don’t really remember what I was doing.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I’m not sure. Walking in, the door wasn’t
7 locked. The door was closed but it wasn’t locked.
8 I went upstairs. The same thing was happening, but
9 my brother was on his back as well.
10 Q. You say “the same thing was happening.”
11 Tell me what was happening.
12 A. My brother was asleep. Michael was
13 masturbating while he had his left hand in my
14 brother’s underwears.
15 Q. And what kind of underwear was your brother
16 wearing.
17 A. I don’t know.
18 Q. Now, when you said you saw the defendant
19 masturbating, were the -- where were they on the
20 bed. What were the positions of the people on the
21 bed on this occasion. If you’re looking at the bed,
22 who was on the left.
23 A. Michael.
24 Q. And who was on the right.
25 A. Gavin.
26 Q. And you said that you saw him masturbating
27 again. What did you actually see occurring.
28 A. What. 1175
 

 
1 Q. The defendant, what did you see him doing.
2 A. Masturbating. Stroking up and down.
3 Q. Where.
4 A. In -- his thing. His private area.
5 Q. Could you see what the other hand was doing.
6 A. Moving. It was -- I don’t know how to
7 explain it.
8 Q. Well, can you just show us what you saw.
9 A. It was going like that (Indicating).
10 Q. And that’s the hand that was where.
11 A. In my brother’s underwears.
12 Q. So just for the record, just sort of got a
13 fist and opening it up and sort of like that.
14 A. Yeah.
15 MR. SNEDDON: Doesn’t help any, does it.
16 Sort of like semi closing and opening the hand.
17 Q. And the second time, how long did you stay.
18 A. Three seconds. It was less than the first
19 time.
20 Q. And where did you go.
21 A. Back to my sister’s guest unit.
22 Q. Did you ever tell your -- let me -- from the
23 point that you were -- you went back to the guest
24 unit and you were still on the ranch, did you ever
25 tell your sister what you saw.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Who was the first person that you told what
28 you saw. 1176
 

 
1 A. Dr. Katz.
2 Q. You never told your mother.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Or your brother.
5 A. No.
6 Q. On the second occasion, what was Mr. Jackson
7 wearing, if anything.
8 A. Socks, underwears and an undershirt.
9 Q. And your brother.
10 A. Uhh --
11 Q. You already told us what’s on the bottom.
12 Was he wearing anything on the top.
13 A. Yes, he was wearing an undershirt.
14 Q. What.
15 A. Well, he was wearing a shirt.
16 Q. Where did you go to sleep that night, on the
17 second incident.
18 A. My sister’s guest unit.
19 Q. Now, at some point while you were at
20 Neverland Ranch - okay. - did an incident -- well,
21 let me go back. Let’s go back.
22 Does your brother, because of his condition
23 with cancer, have to go to the doctor regularly.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when he goes to the doctor regularly,
26 what does he have to do.
27 A. A urine sample. Blood sample. He has to go
28 to the kidney specialist. He has to go to two 1177
 

 
1 different doctors. I don’t know what they do.
2 Q. Now, in preparation for his visits to the
3 doctor - okay. - you said he had -- something to do
4 with urine. Does he have to collect that before he
5 goes.
6 A. Sometimes he -- the doctors would send home
7 a bottle for him to fill up and then bring back.
8 Q. Do you remember an occasion while you were
9 at the ranch that he had to go to the doctor and
10 take a urine sample with him.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you present when he and Mr. Jackson
13 discussed that.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; and
15 foundation.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Were you present at any
19 time.
20 A. (Shakes head from side to side.)
21 Q. Okay. Did you see what happened to the
22 urine sample.
23 A. No. But I heard about it.
24 Q. No, I know. I just want to know what
25 your -- the night before your -- did you know when
26 your brother left for the medical appointment.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And that night before that, were you with 1178
 

 
1 him.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Pardon.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Not at all.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Where were you.
8 A. I don’t know.
9 Q. Did you see him leave in the morning.
10 A. No, I was probably still asleep.
11 Q. Can you describe the container. Let me go
12 back.
13 Did you see the container on the occasion
14 that he was going to the doctor while he was at the
15 ranch.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And where was it when you
21 saw it.
22 A. Where was the bottle.
23 Q. Yeah.
24 A. It was in the guest units.
25 Q. When your brother came back from that
26 appointment, were you there.
27 A. No.
28 Q. You weren’t on the ranch when -- did you see 1179
 

 
1 him when he came driving up.
2 A. No.
3 Q. When did you first see your brother after he
4 went to the doctor’s appointment.
5 A. I don’t remember. Probably later that
6 night.
7 Q. Do you know how long he was gone.
8 A. Probably about six hours.
9 Q. Do you know whether or not your brother was
10 with him when he came back.
11 A. I don’t know.
12 Q. Did -- was your sister at the ranch while he
13 was gone.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you and your sister were there.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You don’t remember what you did that day at
18 all.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Now, at this point, after this, did
21 you at some time eventually leave the ranch for the
22 last time.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you remember how many days or when it
25 was in relationship to this appointment that your
26 brother went to the doctor’s for.
27 A. I don’t know.
28 Q. Well, was it a long time, a short time, a -- 1180
 

 
1 A. A short time. A short time.
2 Q. What makes you think that.
3 A. I don’t know. It was --
4 Q. Is that just a guess.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Take a minute and think about
7 it.
8 A. I don’t know.
9 Q. All right. And how was it that you learned
10 that you were going to leave the ranch.
11 A. I heard from -- I think it was from my
12 sister, that my grandfather was ill. Well, they
13 said my grandfather was ill, but he wasn’t.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Narrative;
15 nonresponsive.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. You learned it from
18 whom.
19 A. I learned of it from my sister.
20 Q. All right. And what did you learn.
21 A. That my grandfather was ill.
22 Q. Was that true.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did your sister tell you that.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. So when you heard that, then what did you
27 do.
28 A. I thought he was ill, so I wanted to go 1181
 

 
1 home.
2 Q. And did the three of you leave.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And how did you get from -- from there to --
5 where did you go.
6 A. We went to our grandma’s house.
7 Q. Did you ever go back to the ranch after
8 that.
9 A. Never.
10 Q. And who was it that left that day.
11 A. Left home.
12 Q. Who was with you when you left.
13 A. My brother, sister and me.
14 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, I have about five more
15 minutes. I don’t know if you want to keep going or
16 you want to --
17 THE COURT: No.
18 MR. SNEDDON: Okay.
19 THE COURT: It’s 2:30. We’ll end the session
20 today.
21 I want to tell you, tomorrow, remember,
22 we’re going to have a shorter session. We’re going
23 to start at 8:30, and we’re going to end at 11:30.
24 I’ll tell you that so that you can make your plans
25 for tomorrow. I was a little vague about when we
26 were going to end last week, but I think the best
27 time is at our normal break, and we’ll just end for
28 the morning. And then we’ll start again on 1182
 

 
1 Wednesday with the regular schedule.
2 See you tomorrow. Remember the admonition.
3 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)
4 --o0o--
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28 1183
 

 
1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 1002 through 1183
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at
19 said proceedings on March 7, 2005, and thereafter
20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided
21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 March 7, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 1184
