


6543

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA

3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION

4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE

5

6

7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )

8 CALIFORNIA, )

9 Plaintiff, )

10 -vs- ) No. 1133603

11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )

12 Defendant. )

13

14

15

16

17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

18

19 MONDAY, APRIL 18, 2005

20

21 8:30 A.M.

22

23 (PAGES 6543 THROUGH 6598)

24

25

26

27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304

28 BY: Official Court Reporter 6543



1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2

3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,

4 District Attorney -and-

5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney

6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,

7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street

8 Santa Barbara, California 93101

9

10

11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. 
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.

12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.

13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067

14 -and-

15 SANGER & SWYSEN

16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C

17 Santa Barbara, California 93101

18 -and-

19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.

20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670

21 (NOT PRESENT)

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28 6544



1 I N D E X

2

3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.

4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.

5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.

6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.

7

8

9 PLAINTIFF’S WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

10

11 JACKSON, Janet 6546-M (Contd.)

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13

14

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17

18

19

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27

28 6545



1 Santa Maria, California

2 Monday, April 18, 2005

3 8:30 a.m.

4

5 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.

6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.

7 COUNSEL AT COUNSEL TABLE: (In unison)

8 Good morning, Your Honor.

9 THE COURT: Ready to proceed?

10 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

11 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.

12

13 JANET JACKSON

14 Having been previously sworn, resumed the

15 stand and testified further as follows:

16

17 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)

18 BY MR. MESEREAU:

19 Q. Ms. Arvizo, throughout January, February,

20 March and April of 2003, you were being represented

21 by counsel in proceedings related to your ex-husband

22 David, correct?

23 A. Of what year?

24 Q. 2003.

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And without going into much of the detail,

27 you were represented by a lawyer who you’ve

28 mentioned already named Michael Manning, correct? 6546



1 A. For what?

2 Q. For your request for spousal support, your

3 issues involving David Arvizo and your domestic

4 proceeding, correct?

5 A. This is correct.

6 Q. And documents related to your requests for

7 spousal support from David and other issues related

8 to your divorce were being periodically filed by

9 Attorney Michael Manning, correct?

10 A. I don’t understand his question very well,

11 but something about spousal support and child

12 support, that was in effect for already almost --

13 almost, my best estimate, for almost three years.

14 We had been waiting for that court date for years

15 already. That’s my best estimate.

16 Q. And how long do you recall Michael Manning

17 representing you?

18 A. I think, my best estimate, since 2001. I

19 was way at the bottom of his list because I -- he

20 was providing his services for free.

21 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

22 THE COURT: Stricken after the date.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: So would it be accurate to

24 say, based on what you remember, Attorney Michael

25 Manning was representing you in 2001, 2002, 2003,

26 and 2004 on issues related to your ex-husband?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And various income and expense declarations, 6547



1 various declarations, various documents were

2 periodically being filed with the court by Attorney

3 Manning on your behalf, right?

4 A. If I clearly -- if I understand his

5 question, I think with Mr. Manning, that was handled

6 in a bulk, and I think it was probably in the first

7 meeting that I had ever met with him, and I held

8 onto those things. That’s the best I can remember.

9 So he did it when he had time because, like I said,

10 I was at the bottom of his list.

11 Q. Would it be accurate to say that this lawyer

12 filed documents on your behalf on October 15th,

13 2001, October 16th, 2001, November 6th, 2001,

14 January 10th, 2002, April of 2002, June 25th, 2002,

15 January 6th, 2003, January 23rd, 2003, March 5th,

16 2003, and that there was a hearing on March 11th,

17 2003, involving your issues with David? Does that

18 sound accurate to you?

19 A. I don’t know what he’s trying to say. But

20 like I said, in the initial meeting with him, to the

21 best of my recollection, it was handled like in a

22 package, he had like a package already made. So

23 when he had time, he went ahead and took care of it

24 himself. Because he made me aware, since he was

25 doing it for free, it was as he could, so I had to

26 be patient.

27 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

28 showed you all those filed documents that were filed 6548



1 with the court?

2 A. Yes. He filed them accordingly to when he

3 had time, because I was not a paying customer.

4 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

5 THE COURT: After “Yes,” I’ll strike.

6 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Arvizo, have you had

9 a chance to look at those court documents?

10 A. Just the date on them, the same ones he just

11 said.

12 Q. Do they refresh your recollection that your

13 attorney was filing documents throughout those years

14 on your behalf?

15 A. Like I said, he went -- according to when he

16 had time, yes, that’s correct.

17 Q. All of those years, this attorney was

18 representing you in your domestic problems with your

19 ex-husband David, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. I think it goes without saying that

22 this lawyer was representing you during the time

23 period you claim you were being harassed and falsely

24 imprisoned by Mr. Jackson’s associates, correct?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And I think you’ve already said, you never

27 told this lawyer at any time that anyone in your

28 family was being held against their will, correct? 6549



1 A. Are you -- is that attorney-client

2 privilege? Because he’s still my attorney.

3 Q. If you’re asserting the privilege, I will

4 not ask any further into that.

5 A. Yes, please.

6 Q. Okay. Is Attorney Michael Manning still

7 representing you?

8 A. No, he’s not.

9 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated to the jury that

10 this attorney was representing you for free; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, this is correct.

13 Q. Didn’t your attorney at one point file

14 documents with the court asking that your ex-husband

15 pay your fees?

16 A. Yes, this is correct.

17 Q. Now, in the -- just to set the record

18 straight on dates, it appears that your divorce

19 action was filed October 15th, 2001. Does that make

20 sense to you?

21 A. The best I can remember is after David was

22 arrested and the first day he presented himself at

23 the criminal courts is when Michael Manning handed

24 him already the documents for divorce.

25 Q. Okay.

26 A. That’s the best I can remember how it

27 happened.

28 Q. And do you recall approximately when he was 6550



1 first arrested?

2 A. I think he was arrested either the end of

3 September -- I think my best estimate is the end of

4 September, but it could have possibly been the

5 beginning of October. But the best I can remember

6 is the end of September.

7 Q. Now, on October 4th, 2001, you went to the

8 Hollenbeck Division with Davellin, Star, and Gavin

9 to report problems with David, right?

10 A. The Hollenbeck Division is composed of two

11 different separate buildings. The Hollenbeck Police

12 Department is a separate building from the

13 Hollenbeck detective center. And if you walk there,

14 it’s quite a distance. But on car, it’s quite fast.

15 And there’s even, I think, a bridge, a freeway

16 bridge that separates both things, and they’re even

17 on separate side of the buildings. Separate side of

18 the street, I mean.

19 Q. And you know that police department quite

20 well, correct?

21 A. I’ve never gone to the police department.

22 I’ve only gone to the detective center.

23 Q. And on October 4th, 2001, you did go to the

24 Hollenbeck detective section, correct?

25 A. I don’t remember the date, but I do remember

26 the event.

27 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

28 show you a report to refresh your memory on the 6551



1 date?

2 A. If you say the date’s on there, then that

3 should be correct. That should be accurate.

4 Q. I can’t testify. Can I just show it to you?

5 A. Well, if it’s on the paper, it’s correct.

6 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection if

7 I just show it to you?

8 A. Okay. Come on over.

9 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

10 THE COURT: Yes. But, Counsel, she’s

11 conceded the date. So what are you doing?

12 MR. MESEREAU: If the Court permits, I’ll

13 just read the date into the record.

14 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I’ll stipulate to

15 the date as being the date of the event.

16 THE COURT: Without stipulation, she’s

17 conceded whatever date is on there is accurate. So

18 let’s move along.

19 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

20 Q. The date on the report is October 4th, 2001.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. And you recall going to the detective

23 division to speak about your problems with David,

24 correct?

25 A. Yes. The detective there had invited me, if

26 I wanted to come on over, to come on over, because

27 our phone had been -- our interview had been by the

28 phone. 6552



1 Q. Now, you got to the detective division and

2 asked to talk to a detective, correct?

3 A. Yes. I think it was the same one that I had

4 been talking to.

5 Q. And you told the detective you wanted to

6 show the detective a videotape and numerous photos

7 of you and your children spending time with various

8 celebrities?

9 A. Yes, because he had a hard time believing

10 that a woman in East L.A. with her children knew

11 such -- knew -- knew them. And he’s a detective,

12 so, you know, he was curious.

13 Q. Did you bring the photos of celebrities with

14 you?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And what photos of celebrities did you bring

17 to the detective division of the Hollenbeck

18 Division?

19 A. I think it was -- I think it was mostly of

20 Chris. Chris and Aja.

21 Q. And according to the detective, you laughed

22 and appeared happy at the meeting, correct?

23 A. Yes, because finally me and my children are

24 getting some sense of freedom.

25 Q. It says you seemed happy as you showed him

26 information about various celebrities, correct?

27 A. Well, it was a video of Chris and the

28 children together. And Aja. 6553



1 Q. Now, before you testified has anyone showed

2 you any police reports to review?

3 A. Yes, they have shown them to me.

4 Q. And who’s “they”?

5 A. The D.A.’s Office.

6 Q. Okay. And when did they do that,

7 approximately?

8 A. Approximately, probably -- I think it was

9 days ago, yes.

10 Q. Okay. Did you meet over the weekend with

11 anyone from the prosecution?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Who was that?

14 A. Mr. Zonen.

15 Q. And when did you meet Mr. Zonen?

16 A. Yesterday, with a detective present.

17 Q. And did you go over documents?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you talk about your testimony?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How long was the meeting?

22 A. With me? Probably about -- about ten

23 minutes.

24 Q. Okay. And the whole meeting was ten

25 minutes?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Okay. And where did it take place?

28 A. At -- in -- 6554



1 Q. Don’t give your address if it’s your home.

2 Just say it’s, you know, at a residence.

3 A. No.

4 Are you okay?

5 BAILIFF CORTEZ: I apologize.

6 THE WITNESS: I don’t know what you --

7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was it at a residence?

8 A. No. No, it wasn’t.

9 Q. Was it at an office?

10 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object to the location,

11 Your Honor.

12 THE COURT: He’s just trying to get a general

13 statement. It’s overruled.

14 You may answer.

15 THE WITNESS: Where I’m staying.

16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Okay. And they

17 came to see you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the meeting was only ten minutes?

20 A. It was ten minutes.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I think he must have been on his way back to

23 the office, I guess.

24 Q. Okay. In your -- in one of your domestic

25 violence disputes with David, do you remember

26 signing a declaration that your children -- your

27 boys sleep with baseball bats because they’re afraid

28 of David? 6555



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And was that true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And when did your boys begin sleeping

5 with baseball bats, if you know?

6 A. To the best that I can remember, it’s when

7 David and Mr. Halpern, his attorney, were making

8 the -- parading on the circuitry of the T.V., you

9 know, making their rounds on T.V. And so it

10 resurfaced a lot of things that they had been

11 already feeling. But it intensified in 2003.

12 Q. So because of the T.V. appearances by David

13 and his lawyer, your sons began sleeping with

14 baseball bats; is that what you’re saying?

15 A. It began then. It began. It’s the best I

16 can remember.

17 Q. Now, did the -- now, excuse me, did you say

18 a prosecutor showed you various police reports?

19 A. Not yesterday.

20 Q. Not yesterday?

21 A. No.

22 Q. But at some point?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Did the prosecutor show you another police

25 report where you reported David for domestic

26 violence and told the police that Michael Jackson,

27 Kobe Bryant and Fritz Coleman are going to help you?

28 A. That’s because David was calling me “whore,” 6556



1 and he said -- David said that he was going to tell

2 everybody that I had sex with them. And so if they

3 wanted to do that, they can go verify with them that

4 I’m not having sex with any of those people.

5 Q. That wasn’t in your police interview, was

6 it?

7 A. I did speak to the detective about it.

8 Q. So when you told the detective, “Michael

9 Jackson, Kobe Bryant and Fritz Coleman are going to

10 help me in my action against David,” that’s what you

11 were referring to?

12 A. Not action against David. That they can go

13 ask basically them themself that I’m not having sex

14 with them.

15 Q. Okay. But you’ve seen the report, and

16 nowhere in the report does it ever say that you told

17 the police officers that there are accusations that,

18 “I’m having sex with these celebrities,” correct?

19 A. Well, I don’t think that’s considered a

20 crime.

21 Q. So when the police officer just mentions

22 that quote, in your mind you should have also said,

23 “I told him the reason for the quote was that there

24 were false accusations about me having sex with

25 these celebrities,” correct?

26 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object. That question is

27 ambiguous.

28 THE COURT: Sustained. 6557



1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Had you ever told Michael

2 Jackson anything about your domestic problems with

3 David?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Had you ever told Kobe Bryant anything about

6 your domestic problems with David?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Had you told Fritz Coleman anything about

9 your domestic problems with David?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And again, in looking at the report, you

12 know that there’s nothing in that report about these

13 false accusations of sex, you know that, correct?

14 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

15 THE COURT: Overruled.

16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know that?

17 A. I don’t think it was considered a crime.

18 Q. Would it refresh your recollection just to

19 see the report?

20 A. I don’t need to see the report. I’m telling

21 you that’s what happened and that’s it.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you had a hearing -- excuse me,

23 let me rephrase that better.

24 Based on reports you made to the police,

25 David Arvizo was charged with domestic violence a

26 couple of times, right?

27 A. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

28 What -- 6558



1 Q. I’ll be happy to rephrase.

2 Based on accusations you made about David

3 Arvizo being abusive and violent, he was prosecuted,

4 right?

5 A. I don’t under --

6 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as speculative.

7 THE COURT: Sustained.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall David Arvizo

9 being prosecuted for crimes related to domestic

10 violence?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as far as you know, why was he

13 prosecuted?

14 A. Because he did the crime.

15 Q. And was he reported for those crimes, to

16 your knowledge?

17 A. He was investigated.

18 Q. And do you know how the investigations

19 began?

20 A. Yes, because the best I can remember is I

21 was outside getting beat up and some children called

22 the police.

23 Q. Now, do you recall, in -- excuse me. At

24 some point you spoke to a city attorney, correct,

25 from the Los Angeles County City Attorney’s Office,

26 correct?

27 A. Okay. Which case are we talking about?

28 Q. One of your domestic -- one of the domestic 6559



1 violence cases that were filed against your

2 ex-husband David. Do you recall talking to someone

3 named Soriano?

4 A. Okay, yes.

5 Q. Okay. And do you recall talking to Mr.

6 Soriano about a photograph that had you holding a

7 knife? Do you remember that?

8 A. I didn’t talk to him about it. He asked me,

9 because David and Mr. Halpern, the ones that they’ve

10 sold to the tabloids, presented it to me.

11 Q. And you didn’t deny there was a photo of you

12 with a knife like this, right?

13 A. Of course there was.

14 Q. And you had an explanation for that

15 photograph, right?

16 A. Of course.

17 Q. And please tell the jury what that

18 explanation is.

19 A. In the tabloids they have blurted out --

20 well, they phased out the running -- I think it was

21 running water, dishes -- full of dishes in the sink,

22 my son sitting in the background doing his homework.

23 I was washing the dishes at the time. And David had

24 asked me, he goes, “Hey, Janet’s like the movie.”

25 This is the best I can remember. And he said,

26 “Here,” and it was all done in jokingly, and he

27 snapped a picture. Well, we’re talking about one of

28 those throw-away camera pictures. And my son is 6560



1 clearly in the background doing his homework,

2 holding up his paperwork. It’s the best I can

3 remember.

4 Q. And you would agree you’re photographed with

5 a knife like this?

6 A. Yes, I am.

7 Q. And it all is play acting, right?

8 A. No, it was done jokingly.

9 Q. Okay. Some other photographs surface of you

10 with something else you were holding, correct?

11 A. That was a broom. You know, when you sweep

12 like this from left to right, depending, yes. And

13 they also -- Mr. Halpern and David also sold that to

14 the tabloids.

15 Q. And that was meant in jest also, correct,

16 the photo of you with a broom?

17 A. Those pictures were taken in, hmm, I

18 think -- I think in 1999. The best I can remember.

19 1999. No, goodness, I think 1998, actually. Seven

20 years ago. That is the best I can remember.

21 Q. Now, around October 16th of 2001, you filed

22 documents with the Superior Court through your

23 attorney, Michael Manning, in which you claimed

24 David had threatened to kill you and the kids,

25 right?

26 A. I don’t think it’s the word -- the way

27 you’re saying it is word for word. But David, many,

28 many years, had already threatened me. Always. 6561



1 Q. And didn’t you say in documents filed with

2 the court David said he would kill you and the kids?

3 A. I think what is -- I don’t think he’s saying

4 it word for word. But David had always threatened

5 me and the kids, always.

6 Q. Did he threaten you with death?

7 A. He always would.

8 Q. And you indicated that David said that if

9 you cause him trouble, he would have one of Ray’s,

10 his brother, people kill you and the kids, right?

11 A. Yes. David had said that for years, many,

12 many years to me.

13 Q. Who is Ray?

14 A. Ray is David’s brother, who is a convicted

15 drug dealer.

16 Q. And did Ray himself ever threaten you and

17 the children?

18 A. Ray never, never threatened me. It was all

19 per David’s own word.

20 Q. At some point did you mention in one of your

21 interviews that you had been abused in your own home

22 growing up?

23 A. Never.

24 Q. Okay. Did you ever mention anything about

25 your father being abusive?

26 A. Absolutely never.

27 Q. And you didn’t tell that to anyone, correct?

28 A. Never. 6562



1 Q. Okay. Did all the abuse in your home come

2 from David himself?

3 A. Always.

4 Q. Okay. Do you recall the meeting with Brad

5 Miller at Jay Jackson’s residence?

6 A. I think so.

7 Q. And do you recall Mr. Miller mentioning to

8 you and Jay Jackson and your family that he worked

9 for Attorney Mark Geragos, who represented Michael

10 Jackson?

11 A. No, I didn’t recall that. And it wasn’t

12 important to me because when he had walked in at the

13 door, he said he was Michael’s private investigator.

14 And also Frank had told me that Brad Miller was

15 Michael’s private investigator. So all that

16 mumbo-jumbo he was saying, it wasn’t brought to my

17 attention until we had a -- here, I was here in this

18 courtroom, and I think it was September. So he’s

19 doing the same thing he did in September.

20 Q. When --

21 Move to strike, Your Honor.

22 THE COURT: I’ll strike after, “No, I didn’t

23 recall that.”

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you learned that Brad

25 Miller was an investigator, did it ever occur to you

26 that you were being investigated?

27 A. No. Because Frank had told me that he was

28 Michael’s private investigator and he was here to 6563



1 help me and the kids. And I believed him. I

2 believed too much of them.

3 Q. He said he was an investigator for Mark

4 Geragos in front of Major Jay Jackson, did he not?

5 A. Jay repeatedly kept coming in and out of his

6 bedroom.

7 Q. Did Brad Miller, as far as you remember,

8 ever tell Major Jay Jackson in Major Jay Jackson’s

9 home that he was an investigator for Mark Geragos,

10 who represented Michael Jackson?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you recall ever discussing with Jay

13 Jackson the fact that Brad Miller was a private

14 investigator?

15 A. No. It’s just that’s how he introduced

16 himself.

17 Q. Did you ever discuss with Jay Jackson either

18 before or after that interview who Brad Miller was?

19 A. There was no -- I don’t know what he’s

20 trying -- it’s so broad, but, the answer to that

21 question is no, as I’m understanding it.

22 Q. After the interview was completed, did you

23 ever discuss with Jay Jackson who Brad Miller was?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And did Jay Jackson ever ask you, “Janet, he

26 said he’s an investigator. Who is he?”

27 A. No.

28 Q. Did you ever learn that Asaf worked for 6564



1 Attorney Mark Geragos?

2 A. On the tape -- on the tape-recorder that

3 Asaf illegally was taping the Child Protective

4 Services, he also says my son -- I think my son

5 there, Star, asks him, and he points out that he’s

6 Michael’s security, or Star asks him, “Are you

7 Michael’s security?” And he clearly says by his own

8 mouth, “Yes.”

9 Q. Did you ever learn that Johnny was a private

10 investigator working with Miller?

11 A. Johnny told me he was Michael’s security.

12 Q. So it never occurred to you at any time that

13 Attorney Mark Geragos had anyone investigating who

14 you were and who your family was?

15 A. Well, first of all, why would he have a

16 criminal defense attorney --

17 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

18 THE WITNESS: -- if there’s no criminal

19 investigation under its way?

20 THE COURT: You may answer that “yes” or

21 “no.” Did it occur to you?

22 THE WITNESS: Can you --

23 MR. MESEREAU: If we could have it read

24 back.

25 THE WITNESS: Could you ask it differently?

26 Because I answered you what I thought was the answer

27 that you were looking for.

28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did it ever occur to you 6565



1 that Attorney Mark Geragos had hired investigators

2 to investigate who you and your family were and what

3 your plans were?

4 A. Criminal defense attorney, no. Now I know

5 he’s a criminal defense attorney. No.

6 Q. And you never discussed with Major Jackson

7 who these people are and what they’re doing,

8 correct?

9 A. No. I believed everything Frank had told

10 me. I believed everything Michael had told me. I

11 believed them. I trusted them, that’s why we’re

12 here today.

13 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike, Your Honor.

14 THE COURT: I’ll strike everything after

15 “No.”

16 MR. MESEREAU: At this time, Your Honor,

17 with the Court’s permission, we’d like to play the

18 audiotape of the Brad Miller interview,

19 Exhibit 5000.

20 THE COURT: Would you remind us how long that

21 tape is?

22 MR. SANGER: It’s 34 minutes and 24 seconds.

23 THE COURT: Are you going to interrupt the

24 tape with questions or just play it again?

25 MR. MESEREAU: I was going to interrupt with

26 a couple of questions. Not too many.

27 THE COURT: Can’t you just go to the points

28 in the tape that -- instead of having us sit here 6566



1 again, listen to that whole tape?

2 MR. MESEREAU: I can do that, Your Honor.

3 THE COURT: All right. Do it.

4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Arvizo, do you

5 recall -- the interview begins with Mr. Miller

6 saying the following: “All right. This is a

7 tape-recorded statement conducted with the Arvizo

8 family, conducted by Brad Miller. Today is Sunday,

9 February 16th, 2003. It’s now 9:47 p.m. on that

10 evening. And as I told you, my name is Brad Miller.

11 I’m a licensed private investigator working on

12 behalf of the Law Firm of Geragos & Geragos,

13 specifically for an attorney by the name of Mark

14 Geragos, who is an attorney for Michael Jackson.

15 And this conversation is being tape-recorded with

16 your permission, correct, Janet?”

17 And your answer is, “Yes.”

18 Do you recall Mr. Miller telling you he

19 worked for Mark Geragos?

20 A. In September it was brought to my attention,

21 this mumbo-jumbo. Up to that point I had only

22 believed he was Michael’s private investigator.

23 Q. Do you recall towards the end of that

24 recorded interview, Mr. Miller asks you the

25 following: “All right. Well, I thank you guys. I

26 think this has been very helpful. So let’s wrap

27 this up. It’s now about 10:25, Sunday night,

28 February 16th, 2003. As I’ve told you, my name is 6567



1 Brad Miller. I’m a private investigator working on

2 behalf of Mark Geragos, who’s an attorney for

3 Michael Jackson. And this conversation has been

4 tape-recorded with your permission, correct, Janet?”

5 Answer, by you, “Yes.”

6 Do you recall that?

7 A. I didn’t pay attention to that.

8 THE COURT: Counsel, do we have a transcript

9 yet for that?

10 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, we do, Your Honor. I

11 don’t think we’ve lodged it with the Court, but we

12 do have one.

13 THE COURT: Would you lodge it with the

14 Court, please?

15 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll see if I can --

16 THE COURT: Later today is fine.

17 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Yes, we will.

18 Q. Where was Jay -- excuse me, where was Major

19 Jay Jackson during that interview?

20 A. My husband -- in the beginning, we were

21 just -- it was a new relationship. And at that

22 point I think he must have been in his bedroom,

23 because you saw him kind of detached, what was going

24 on.

25 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike, Your Honor.

26 THE COURT: Stricken.

27 You just need to answer the question.

28 Listen to it carefully, and then just answer the 6568



1 question. Don’t volunteer additional information.

2 Would you -- do you want to restate it or do

3 you want the court reporter to read it back?

4 MR. MESEREAU: If the court reporter would

5 read it back, I’d appreciate it. Thank you.

6 (Record read.)

7 THE WITNESS: The majority of the time, in

8 his bedroom.

9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall Major Jay

10 Jackson sitting during the majority of that

11 interview on the couch?

12 A. The majority of that interview he was in his

13 bedroom.

14 Q. Now, is it your -- let me rephrase that.

15 Are you claiming that what you said in this

16 interview on February 16th, 2003, was scripted?

17 A. I already told him before. Everything that

18 was on the Bradley Miller audiotape was from my

19 heart, from the initial lovey-dovey meeting that I

20 had in Miami. I believed him and I trusted him.

21 So, it’s -- the best I can say, it’s most -- it’s

22 all accurate.

23 Q. You were asked by Mr. Miller, “What was Mr.

24 Jackson’s role in his recovery?” referring to Gavin

25 and his cancer. Do you remember that?

26 A. Uh-huh.

27 Q. And you said, “Like a father, like a father

28 to him.” Do you remember that? 6569



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Brad Miller said to you, “What would Michael

3 do?”

4 And your answer was, “Everything a loving

5 father, unselfish, kind,” then inaudible, “exhibits

6 unconditional love,” correct?

7 A. All of the Bradley Miller audiotape, it’s

8 all correct and accurate. That’s how I felt.

9 Q. Now, your son Gavin also spoke in that

10 interview, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as far as you know, he was telling the

13 truth, right?

14 A. There’s -- there was a few times that I had

15 stepped out, because I was feeling a little bit

16 concerned as to why and -- how Jay was feeling,

17 because it was a new relationship with me that I was

18 beginning with Jay, so I was getting a little

19 concerned as to why Jay kept coming in and out. So

20 there’s periods in there that I’m not present when

21 there’s being audiotape.

22 Q. Gavin said that Michael would always put a

23 smile on his face. Do you remember that?

24 A. I have since read the -- the transcript of

25 the audiotape. And like I said, everything there is

26 accurate. Everything there is correct. That’s how

27 they were feeling at that moment and at that time.

28 Q. And you were there when Gavin said Michael 6570



1 didn’t come to the hospital but he would call him on

2 the phone, correct?

3 A. Pardon me?

4 Q. You were present at the interview when Gavin

5 said Michael didn’t come to the hospital. He would

6 call on the phone, right?

7 A. Yes. He did -- Michael never once came to

8 the hospital. But there was long hours of

9 conversations, hours and hours.

10 Q. And you said in that interview, “And that’s

11 one thing the role Michael was, he wasn’t just a

12 father figure to Gavin, he also was to Star and

13 Davellin, because he knew that all three of them

14 needed him and he was -- um, is family to me. And

15 he also realized that I needed him.” Correct?

16 A. Yes. This is stemming from the initial

17 meeting that I had in Miami that he gave me a

18 reinterpretation of what his role was. This is from

19 Michael in Miami.

20 Q. So this is from your heart and it’s the

21 truth, correct?

22 A. Yes, it is. It is.

23 Q. You talked about David being charged with

24 child endangerment and terrorist threats, right?

25 A. If that’s on there, yes.

26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection? I can

27 show it to you.

28 A. Yes. 6571



1 Q. And Davellin said that David had broken her

2 tailbone, correct?

3 A. Yes, he had.

4 Q. And that was true, correct?

5 A. Yes. Yes. With his big old foot. Kicked

6 her right --

7 Q. Gavin said that David hit him during his

8 cancer treatment?

9 A. Oh, yes.

10 Q. And that was also true, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And Star said that David hit him where he

13 has a cyst, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You said that David would even abuse the

16 dog, right?

17 A. Yes. He hurt many of our little animals.

18 Q. You mentioned a ferret and a dog, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. You talked about, “They had filmed -- when

23 they had filmed the beautiful story about Michael

24 and my son, David was there present.” Do you

25 remember that?

26 A. Yes. Yes.

27 Q. What were you referring to when you talked

28 about “the beautiful story about Michael and my 6572



1 son”?

2 A. It was the DVD that’s titled “Michael and

3 Gavin.” I had never seen it prior to this time, but

4 Michael had informed me that it was a beautiful

5 story. So this is a -- all stemming from the Miami

6 meeting, that 45-minute lovey-dovey meeting that I

7 had with Michael.

8 Q. So when you talked about the beautiful

9 story, you hadn’t seen it; is that true?

10 A. I had never seen it prior to Gary giving it

11 to Evvy -- I mean Evvy giving it to Gary and Gary

12 giving it to us.

13 Q. You said that David was mad one day because

14 you and Michael were dancing, right?

15 A. Yes. And this was -- this was David’s

16 character. You know, I couldn’t wear makeup.

17 Couldn’t shave my legs. You know, just different

18 things.

19 So, yes, it was a -- I was happy to see

20 Gavin dancing, because Gavin at that point had like

21 a toddler walk. And, to me, that made me happy.

22 And we were at a 20-foot distance and yet I still

23 got beat up for that.

24 Q. But you said that, “Me and Michael were

25 dancing,” correct?

26 A. Yes, me, Michael, the children. You don’t

27 take it out of context or make it dirty. He was --

28 me, Michael, the children, other guests there. It 6573



1 was inside this -- what is it? -- bumper cars area,

2 and they have the ability to play the music really

3 loud, so -- and that’s what -- that’s just what it

4 was all about.

5 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike the comments,

6 Your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Denied.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Where were you and Michael

9 dancing?

10 A. It was inside, just the children, me,

11 Michael and other guests there, under a tent in the

12 bumper car area.

13 Q. And when did this happen?

14 A. That happened in the initial meeting in

15 August of 2000. And I was happy to see that Gavin

16 was actually trying to dance. He wasn’t able to

17 dance. But because he had a toddler walk, to me,

18 that was a big step.

19 Q. Did you tell the jury last week you had

20 never had a conversation with Michael Jackson until

21 Miami?

22 A. Yes, I never had a conversation with

23 Michael. Michael didn’t talk to me in the initial

24 visit with him.

25 Q. You danced with him, but you never talked to

26 him?

27 A. That’s right. It wasn’t me and him solely

28 under the blue sky night. It was me, him, my 6574



1 children, other guests, under a tent in the bumper

2 car area, which they had the ability to play the

3 music really loud.

4 Q. The first time you visited Neverland, do you

5 recall having dinner in the main house at Neverland?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall Michael Jackson being there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall a discussion about where Gavin

10 was going to sleep?

11 A. It wasn’t a discussion with me. It was a

12 discussion with David.

13 Q. And approximately when did that dinner take

14 place?

15 A. Dinnertime.

16 Q. Approximate month and year?

17 A. Approximate, August 2000.

18 Q. And you never spoke to Michael Jackson at

19 that dinner table?

20 A. No. David was present.

21 Q. How long did the dinner last?

22 A. I guess maybe -- maybe 20 minutes’ worth.

23 Maybe.

24 Q. Getting back to the Brad Miller recording,

25 you said the following: “In my observance and their

26 interaction, and Gavin with Michael and Star, with

27 Michael and Davellin, with Michael is that, as a

28 father figure, he provides for them. He provides 6575



1 them with a sense of humor. He’s very funny. And a

2 sense of direction and guidance.”

3 And you meant what you were saying, correct?

4 A. Yes, I did. This is my observance of what I

5 saw in Miami. But now I know different what was

6 happening and I was -- and I was clueless.

7 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike the comments.

8 THE COURT: I’ll strike after “Yes, I did.”

9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You said, “Michael’s

10 everything that an ultimate father is, and that’s

11 what the children have always prayed for, is a

12 father, and that God has blessed them with. And me,

13 I’ve always wanted family, so he’s family to me.”

14 You said that from your heart, correct?

15 A. Yes. He put on a good show in Miami.

16 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike the comment.

17 THE COURT: Strike the -- after “Yes.”

18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And you said, “In being

19 what I endured in 17 years, I would be the most

20 sensitive to any little thing. And Michael has

21 never, absolutely never, made me feel in any way,

22 form, shape or matter that anything was anything

23 different other than Gavin as a son to Michael, Star

24 as a son to Michael, Davellin as a daughter to

25 Michael, and Michael father, like a father to all

26 three of them.”

27 Do you remember saying that?

28 MR. ZONEN: What page are we on? 6576



1 MR. MESEREAU: 12.

2 MR. ZONEN: Thank you.

3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember saying

4 those words?

5 A. Yes, and now I realize how stupid I was.

6 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

7 THE COURT: I’ll strike after, “Yes,” but

8 what’s the point? I mean, on the questions here,

9 you’re asking her whether she said things. We’ve

10 heard the tape, we know what she said. Do you have

11 specific areas you wanted to ask her about?

12 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Getting her to say again that she

14 said those things doesn’t seem to be getting us

15 somewhere here, to me.

16 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll tie it up, Your Honor.

17 Q. Ms. Arvizo, do you remember telling the jury

18 that you were rehearsing with the people you refer

19 to as the Germans for the February 20th interview?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This interview with Brad Miller is February

22 16th, 2003, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You’ve told the jury it wasn’t rehearsed,

25 correct?

26 A. That’s correct.

27 Q. Are you saying in the next four days you

28 rehearsed for the February 20th video? 6577



1 A. Prior to Jesus, it was many times daily in

2 Neverland with Dieter. First it was Ronald, Dieter,

3 and then it became Dieter hands on. And as you can

4 see, maybe you’ve -- it’s been played approximately

5 five or six times here, and I’m sure there’s many

6 people that can recite it now. Imagine me working

7 daily, Dieter hands on, with me and my kids, many

8 times in one day, how that’s possible.

9 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

10 THE COURT: I’ll ask you just to answer the

11 question again. The question was, “Are you saying

12 in the next four days you rehearsed for the February

13 20th video?” And what’s your answer to that

14 question?

15 THE WITNESS: It had already done -- been

16 done prior with Dieter on a daily basis.

17 THE COURT: All right. I’ll strike her other

18 answer. Next question.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You’re saying you’d

20 rehearsed with Dieter before, but what you said on

21 this interview with Brad Miller was from the heart,

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. When did you first meet Jamie

25 Masada?

26 A. The best I can remember, I think it was --

27 it was definitely before Gavin became ill.

28 Q. And how did you meet him? 6578



1 A. Through -- the best I can remember, it

2 was -- I had seen a flyer at a public school that

3 was, you know, talking about a comedy camp.

4 Q. Did you bring your children to Jamie

5 Masada’s comedy camp?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Okay. And did your children attend the

8 comedy camp?

9 A. Yes. Yes, they did.

10 Q. Did you attend with them?

11 A. Yes. Every single time. I did.

12 Q. Now, do you recall any of your children

13 getting on stage and performing about how poor your

14 family was?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And do you recall telling Jamie Masada that

17 your children dove into a fountain for coins?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you recall telling George Lopez your

20 children dove into a fountain for coins?

21 A. No. It may have been David maybe. If

22 they’re saying that, it may have been David.

23 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

24 THE COURT: Stricken after “No.”

25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Jamie Masada introduced

26 you to various celebrities, right?

27 A. Not just me, the whole group, the whole --

28 everybody. Everybody that was attending. 6579



1 Q. And did you meet various celebrities through

2 Jamie Masada?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And who did you meet?

5 A. There were guest comics. And me personally,

6 I didn’t get to meet them. The only people I did

7 get to meet was -- personally was George Lopez.

8 This is the best I can remember. Louise Palanker.

9 Fritz Coleman. Sully McCullough. That’s the best I

10 can remember. Those are the people that I

11 personally met. And of course Chris Tucker and his

12 fiancee, girlfriend, I don’t know how they are now,

13 but that’s the best I can remember. Me personally.

14 Q. And approximately what month and year was

15 this?

16 A. The best I can remember, it was all prior to

17 Gavin becoming ill. The only one that we met after

18 Gavin was ill was Chris Tucker. And with Aja. This

19 is the best I can remember. But all the other ones

20 that have already came up here, it was prior to

21 Gavin becoming ill.

22 Q. In your deposition in the J.C. Penney case,

23 and I’m referring to December 18th, 2000, you

24 indicated that you had filed a state disability

25 claim because you were depressed. Remember that?

26 A. Um, yes.

27 Q. You were asked what caused the depression.

28 You said it was not your marriage, “I was just sad 6580



1 about being a nobody.” Do you remember that?

2 A. I’m still a nobody.

3 Q. Would you just answer the question. Isn’t

4 that what you said?

5 A. If it’s on there, that’s correct.

6 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

7 show you that?

8 A. There was many things why I was sad. Most

9 of all, the man that I was married that didn’t love

10 me or my kids.

11 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

12 THE COURT: Strike that answer. I’m not

13 quite sure what the question is at this point,

14 however.

15 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase; I can restate

16 it, Your Honor.

17 Q. You testified under oath, Ms. Arvizo, that

18 you filed a state disability claim because you were

19 depressed, and when asked why you were depressed,

20 you said, “I was sad about being a nobody,” right?

21 MR. ZONEN: Objection; compound.

22 THE COURT: Sustained.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember being

24 questioned about why you had filed a state

25 disability claim?

26 A. No, I don’t. But what he’s talking about --

27 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as nonresponsive.

28 THE COURT: Sustained. 6581



1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember filing a

2 state disability claim?

3 A. Not at that time. It was years and years

4 and years prior to what he’s saying now.

5 Q. Do you remember why you filed that state

6 disability claim?

7 A. Depression.

8 Q. And the depression was because you felt you

9 were a nobody, right?

10 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as irrelevant;

11 immaterial.

12 THE COURT: Overruled.

13 You may answer.

14 THE WITNESS: I’m still a nobody. But now

15 I’m with somebody that’s just a regular person.

16 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike, Your Honor.

17 I’d just request the witness be asked to respond to

18 the question.

19 THE COURT: I’ll strike the answer. Are you

20 asking her if that’s the reason she gave on the

21 form?

22 MR. MESEREAU: In the deposition, Your

23 Honor.

24 THE COURT: I think you need to make that

25 clear. It’s not clear.

26 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I will do that.

27 Q. Ms. Arvizo, in your deposition in the J.C.

28 Penney case on Monday, December 18th, 2000, you had 6582



1 admitted you had filed a state disability claim,

2 correct?

3 A. Yes. Years prior.

4 Q. You said you filed a claim for depression,

5 true?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were asked if your marriage had caused

8 depression. Do you remember that?

9 A. No, I don’t remember that.

10 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

11 show you those pages?

12 A. No. But if it’s on there, it’s correct.

13 Q. You were asked was it your marriage, and

14 your answer was, “No, I was just sad about being a

15 nobody,” correct?

16 A. And I’m still a nobody.

17 Q. In your effort to obtain money in that

18 lawsuit, you didn’t want anyone to think you had had

19 any depression from -- caused by David, correct?

20 A. That’s incorrect.

21 Q. When did you last see Brad Miller?

22 A. When did I last see Brad Miller?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. When he was standing right next to -- next

25 to the camera, in the rebuttal video. Right there.

26 Here’s the camera. Here’s Brad Miller. Right

27 there. I think. That’s my best remember -- my best

28 recollection. 6583



1 Q. The interview with the DCFS was the morning

2 after the rebuttal video.

3 A. Oh, that’s right. He did come afterwards

4 and -- that’s -- go ahead.

5 Q. Was Brad Miller at the meeting with the

6 representatives of the Department of Children &

7 Family Services?

8 A. No, he wasn’t present there when they were

9 there.

10 Q. So was the last time you saw him, that you

11 can recall, where you did the rebuttal video? Was

12 that the last place you saw him?

13 A. He did come afterwards, after the ladies had

14 left. The ladies were no longer in my apartment.

15 He did come afterwards.

16 Q. Was it your idea to have the DCFS interview

17 at Major Jackson’s home?

18 A. I think so.

19 Q. Why?

20 A. I don’t remember.

21 Q. Were you living at Major Jackson’s home --

22 A. No.

23 Q. -- when you had that interview?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you represent to the social workers from

26 the DCFS that that was your home?

27 A. No, I told them this was my boyfriend’s

28 home. 6584



1 Q. Did you tell him that your children ever

2 stayed there?

3 A. I did tell them that we visited there.

4 Q. Was your intent to make them think that’s

5 where your children lived?

6 A. Absolutely not. They know where I lived. I

7 lived in East L.A. on Soto Street. They knew that.

8 Q. Now, I believe you told the jury that at

9 that interview was someone named Aja Pryor, correct?

10 A. Aja Pryor, yes.

11 Q. And Aja Pryor at the time, as far as you

12 knew, was actor and comedian Chris Tucker’s fiancee,

13 right?

14 A. At that time that’s what I felt. They do

15 have a baby together.

16 Q. And her baby was there for the interview,

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And after the interview was over, you drove

20 somewhere with Aja Pryor, didn’t you?

21 A. Incorrect.

22 Q. Did you ever drive with Aja Pryor anywhere

23 after the interview?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did Aja Pryor ever drive you to Neverland at

26 any time?

27 A. No.

28 Q. How often did you used to talk to Aja Pryor 6585



1 during this time period?

2 A. Often.

3 Q. Would you call her?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would she call you?

6 A. We’re talking about a friendship that had

7 gone on for years. So can you specify the time

8 period?

9 Q. Sure. Let’s say between January of 2003 and

10 April of 2003.

11 A. Okay. Prior to Neverland, it was back and

12 forth phone calls. During Neverland, it was --

13 there was no return phone call that she can call me

14 back on.

15 Q. Do you recall Miss Pryor ever driving your

16 children to Neverland?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When was that?

19 A. That was right after the CPS interview, when

20 Asaf had escorted Aja and the children to the car.

21 And they were being followed.

22 Q. Did you ask --

23 Move to strike the comments.

24 THE COURT: Denied.

25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ask Miss Pryor to

26 drive your children to Neverland after the DCFS

27 interview?

28 A. No. 6586



1 Q. Do you know why she did that?

2 A. That was already prearranged.

3 Q. How was it prearranged?

4 A. Well, it was already in a conversation

5 prior, per Frank’s instructions.

6 Q. Did you ever ask Aja Pryor for the keys to

7 Chris Tucker’s car?

8 A. No.

9 Q. To your knowledge, did Davellin ever do

10 that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you recall ever being in a call with

13 Davellin where you and Davellin asked Aja Pryor to

14 the keys to Chris Tucker’s automobile?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you recall discussing going to Brazil

17 with Aja Pryor?

18 A. Like I had told you, remember those

19 conversations that I would have and try to slip

20 something in? So at the end of the -- all these

21 people could put this puzzle together as to where me

22 and my children were finally at.

23 Q. Do you recall telling Aja Pryor that you

24 were excited to go to Brazil?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Do you recall inviting Aja Pryor to go to

27 Carnaval in Brazil with you?

28 A. No. 6587



1 Q. When’s the last time you saw Aja Pryor?

2 A. I think it was the CPS meeting. I think

3 that was the last day.

4 Q. I’d like to ask you some questions about

5 some of the interviews you gave the sheriffs in

6 Santa Barbara, okay?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. I’m just going to go through those

9 interviews.

10 You indicated in one interview that you were

11 studying to be an orthopedic technologist, correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And where were you doing that course of

16 study?

17 A. I was doing that at a vocational school in

18 Orange County.

19 Q. And what years did you attend there?

20 A. I attended approximately in 2003.

21 Q. Did you finish that course?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How long did you go to school there?

24 A. Probably summer and attempted to try to

25 finish fall.

26 Q. You mentioned to the sheriffs that you knew

27 Carol Lamir, correct?

28 A. Yes. That’s David’s girlfriend. 6588



1 Q. Well, before you thought she was David’s

2 girlfriend, you knew her in another capacity,

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, David and I both knew her.

5 Q. And how did you know her?

6 A. Through -- she doesn’t like to call herself

7 grandmother, but she actually is the grandmother

8 to -- to one of the children that was taking tap

9 dance lessons where my children were.

10 Q. And you met her at that school, correct?

11 A. This is correct.

12 Q. Okay. Did you stay in touch with her for

13 any length of time after you met her at that school?

14 A. David did.

15 Q. Did Davellin ever stay at her house, to your

16 knowledge?

17 A. Davellin stood, I think, when Gavin had

18 gotten ill, I think for less than one month. And I

19 came to find out that all she wanted Davellin was to

20 clean her house. And so I put a stop to that.

21 Q. To your knowledge, how many evenings did

22 Davellin stay at Carol Lamir’s house?

23 A. I can’t remember. But the best one who

24 could remember that would probably be Davellin.

25 We’re talking five years ago.

26 Q. Do you know if she spent weeks there?

27 A. I don’t think so.

28 Q. Did you often know if she was going to stay 6589



1 there?

2 A. Of course.

3 Q. Would she ask your permission to stay there?

4 A. No, she didn’t want to go to her house

5 anymore. And I came to find out is because all

6 Carol wanted her was to clean her house.

7 Q. But you don’t know approximately how many

8 nights Davellin stayed at Carol Lamir’s home, right?

9 A. No. Please. My son had cancer, I....

10 Q. Do you know approximately what year Davellin

11 was staying at Carol Lamir’s home?

12 A. Yes, this was when Gavin had cancer, in

13 2000.

14 Q. Did you ever tell Aja Pryor that your family

15 was being held against their will?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was this?

18 A. I think -- I think it was during the hotel

19 period. That’s the best I can remember. I -- I

20 tried to reach different people.

21 Q. And you specifically remember telling her

22 that you were being held against your will?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you remember ever asking her to call the

25 police?

26 A. No. That was another thing I slipped in,

27 and I was always hoping that these people would call

28 themself. This way the call didn’t come from me. 6590



1 Quick slip-in.

2 Q. Now, during the DCFS interview, Aja’s

3 present at Major Jackson’s home with three social

4 workers from Los Angeles, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You never say anything about your being held

7 against your will, correct?

8 A. That’s correct. Because Asaf had already

9 told me -- he already had warned me prior to them --

10 the ladies coming in.

11 Q. You saw Major Jackson when you arrived that

12 morning, correct?

13 A. Yeah -- I think so. But it was a new

14 relationship with Jay, and he was a -- now he has

15 softened up, but back then was very completely

16 organized.

17 Q. The first time you visited Neverland, did

18 you tell the jury you didn’t know where your sons

19 were the first evening?

20 A. Which -- are you talking the police report?

21 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as vague.

22 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it if it’s

23 unclear.

24 THE COURT: All right.

25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The first time you, your

26 husband and your son -- excuse me, you, your husband

27 and your children visited Neverland, do you remember

28 when that was? 6591



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And approximately when was that?

3 A. In August of 2000.

4 Q. Do you remember where your son stayed that

5 first evening?

6 A. In Michael’s house.

7 Q. How did you know they were staying in

8 Michael’s house?

9 A. Because Gavin had asked.

10 Q. Did you hear Gavin ask?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Do you know approximately where he made that

13 request?

14 A. No, I don’t remember.

15 Q. Did he make that request at the dinner

16 table, to your knowledge?

17 A. You know, I -- I can’t remember that part.

18 Q. Did you --

19 A. We’re talking five years ago.

20 Q. Did you have any discussion with Michael

21 Jackson about where your sons were going to stay

22 that evening?

23 A. I didn’t -- he didn’t talk to me. I didn’t

24 talk to him. It was David talking to Michael.

25 Q. So as far as you know, the first night you

26 were there, your sons were staying somewhere in the

27 main house, but you didn’t know where, right?

28 A. This is correct. 6592



1 Q. And you assumed that David knew where; is

2 that correct?

3 A. I assumed that children stay with children.

4 That’s what I assumed.

5 Q. Did you see your sons the next day?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you ask them where they had stayed that

8 evening?

9 A. No, I didn’t. They had told me that they

10 had played, and that was good.

11 Q. Did you then stay at Neverland a second

12 night?

13 A. I think so. Yes. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And was it your belief that your sons stayed

15 in the main house that night?

16 A. Yes, they did.

17 Q. Did you see them the next morning?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ask them where they had spent the

20 evening?

21 A. No. I didn’t -- now I know a lot of things.

22 Now I know --

23 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

24 THE COURT: Sustained.

25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you stay at Neverland

26 a third night during that first visit?

27 A. I don’t remember how many days we stayed

28 there, but I know it was just days. And that’s it. 6593



1 You’re going to walk me through each room -- I mean

2 each door, each day, and I don’t know.

3 Q. Do you think you stayed more than two nights

4 at Neverland during that first visit?

5 A. Definitely more than two, but definitely

6 less than -- less than a week. It was just days.

7 But I can’t remember, it was five years ago.

8 Q. Did you ever at any time ask your sons

9 during that first trip to Neverland where they had

10 spent the night?

11 A. No. No, I didn’t. But I’ve learned things

12 now --

13 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

16 THE COURT: Stricken.

17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In one of your initial

18 interviews with the sheriffs, you talked about

19 Michael Jackson giving a big gift for Gavin, which

20 was a car, correct?

21 A. Yes. It looked exactly like the O.J.

22 Simpson truck.

23 Q. Was it an SUV?

24 A. It was -- it was an old car. It looked like

25 just the O.J. Simpson Bronco thing.

26 Q. It wasn’t a Bronco, was it?

27 A. Oh, no. No. That’s incorrect. Thank you.

28 You’re right. It was a laptop computer. The truck 6594



1 came afterwards.

2 Q. Okay. I’m focusing on just the truck.

3 Okay?

4 A. Okay. Because you had mentioned the truck,

5 so --

6 Q. Well, you said it looked like Mr. Simpson’s

7 Bronco, but it was really a Chevy Blazer, wasn’t it?

8 A. No. I think it was a Ford Bronco.

9 Q. At some point, didn’t you refuse to return

10 the registration to that car?

11 A. I didn’t have no registration.

12 Q. Did you ever keep any of the papers

13 associated with that car?

14 A. No, a VIN number.

15 Q. Did you ever tell the sheriffs in any

16 interview, “I have the papers associated with that

17 car”?

18 A. I have papers that -- I wrote down the VIN

19 number.

20 Q. Anything else?

21 A. No, that’s it.

22 Q. You were upset that that Blazer was

23 returned, weren’t you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You never were upset?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Did you ever think it was wrongfully kept by

28 Mr. Jackson? 6595



1 A. No. What I thought was wrong is that they

2 wanted Gavin to come back alone to pick it up,

3 that’s what I thought. That was the uneasy part.

4 Q. Did you ever complain to anyone that,

5 “Michael Jackson said he would repair the car and we

6 never saw it again”?

7 A. No, I didn’t complain. That was just

8 information that -- the police wanted to know every

9 detail, so that was the best I can recall. And

10 we’re talking about in 2001. This is four years

11 ago.

12 Q. Now, at some point, you said that Mr.

13 Jackson gave your son a laptop computer, right?

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. And do you know approximately when that was?

16 A. That was the first visit that we had gone to

17 in August of 2000.

18 Q. And did you actually see that computer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And was that returned at some point also?

21 A. Yes, it was.

22 Q. Do you remember telling the sheriffs that

23 you had kept the VIN number and registration?

24 A. Okay. Now I know the difference. It was

25 only VIN number. The paperwork of the VIN number.

26 That’s all.

27 Q. So when you said “registration,” it was a

28 mistake? 6596



1 A. Yes. It’s VIN number, that big long number.

2 Q. All right. And you also complained about

3 Michael’s people taking the computer back, correct?

4 A. No, I didn’t complain. I had just made them

5 aware, that’s all.

6 Q. And when you say you made them aware, who

7 were you talking about?

8 A. The police.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Because they wanted every detail that I can

11 possibly remember, so it was just information.

12 Q. Okay. You never complained to any sheriff

13 that the computer had been returned when it really

14 belonged to Gavin?

15 A. No. It was information.

16 Q. Okay.

17 THE COURT: Counsel?

18 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, okay.

19 THE COURT: Take our morning break.

20 (Recess taken.)

21 --o0o--

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 6597



1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE

2

3

4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )

5 OF CALIFORNIA, )

6 Plaintiff, )

7 -vs- ) No. 1133603

8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )

9 Defendant. )

10

11

12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,

13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby

14 certify:

15 That the foregoing pages 6546 through 6597

16 contain a true and correct transcript of the

17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled

18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at

19 said proceedings on April 18, 2005, and thereafter

20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided

21 transcription under my direction.

22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,

23 April 18, 2005.

24

25

26

27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304

28 6598



1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA

3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION

4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE

5

6

7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )

8 CALIFORNIA, )

9 Plaintiff, )

10 -vs- ) No. 1133603

11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )

12 Defendant. )

13

14

15

16

17 REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

18

19 MONDAY, APRIL 18, 2005

20

21 8:30 A.M.

22

23 (PAGES 6599 THROUGH 6769)

24

25

26

27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304

28 BY: Official Court Reporter 6599



1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2

3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,

4 District Attorney -and-

5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney

6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,

7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara Street

8 Santa Barbara, California 93101

9

10

11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU BY: THOMAS A. 
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.

12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.

13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, California 90067

14 -and-

15 SANGER & SWYSEN

16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Street, Suite C

17 Santa Barbara, California 93101

18 -and-

19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.

20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs, California 90670

21 (NOT PRESENT)

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 6600



1 I N D E X

2

3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as “SN” on index.

4 Mr. Zonen is listed as “Z” on index. Mr. Auchincloss is listed as “A” on index.

5 Mr. Mesereau is listed as “M” on index. Ms. Yu is listed as “Y” on index.

6 Mr. Sanger is listed as “SA” on index. Mr. Oxman is listed as “O” on index.

7

8

9 PLAINTIFF’S

WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

10

11 JACKSON, Janet 6743-Z

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 6601



1 E X H I B I T S

2 FOR IN PLAINTIFF’S NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.

3 819 16 pages of photographs 6754 6759

4 820 J.C. Penney settlement

5 amount document - Gavin Arvizo 6752

6 821 J.C. Penney settlement

7 amount document - Star Arvizo 6752

8

9

10 DEFENDANT’S NO.

11 5000-A Transcript of Brad

12 Miller interview 6606

13 5009 Recommended Statement by Janet Ventura 6723 6723

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28 6602



1 THE COURT: Counsel?

2 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, thank you, Your Honor.

3 Q. Ms. Arvizo, you mentioned to the sheriffs in

4 one of your initial interviews that Michael had sent

5 gifts to Gavin, correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what gifts do you recall Michael Jackson

8 sending to Gavin when Gavin was ill?

9 A. When Gavin was ill?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Go through the whole list?

12 Q. Sure. Whatever you can remember.

13 A. The best I can remember is the computer,

14 the -- I think it was a Bronco - I just have a

15 picture of it - white, Christmas gifts, and that was

16 all, when he was sick.

17 Q. And what --

18 A. That’s the best I can remember.

19 Q. Do you remember anything being delivered at

20 the hospital for Gavin from Michael Jackson?

21 A. Yes, a big gift basket.

22 Q. Okay. Do you remember toys like Play

23 Station 3, things like that, being delivered to

24 Gavin for Michael?

25 A. Okay, I was incorrect in saying Play

26 Station 3. It was a Play Station 2, and that was

27 during Christmastime.

28 Q. Is that all the gifts you remember Gavin 6603



1 ever receiving from Michael Jackson?

2 A. This is the best I can remember, when Gavin

3 was sick.

4 Q. When Gavin wasn’t sick, do you remember

5 other gifts being given?

6 A. Yes. Michael would send things through --

7 through like a courier, messenger, something like

8 that, give baskets, and was saying, “I love you,

9 Gavin.”

10 Q. Do you remember telling the sheriffs that

11 when Michael Jackson gave those gifts and those

12 messages, you assumed he was trying to cure him,

13 because Gavin was ill? Do you remember saying

14 that?

15 A. No, I don’t think that’s exactly correct how

16 you’re saying it. But I feel when Gavin was sick,

17 there were just things that were get-you-well gifts,

18 I guess, I don’t know. The only thing that made me

19 uneasy was --

20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; move to strike.

21 THE COURT: Overruled. And you interrupted

22 her answer.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling

24 the sheriffs Michael Jackson would leave messages at

25 your home for Gavin?

26 A. Yes. He would leave -- what kind of

27 messages? Phone messages?

28 Q. Yeah. He’ll say things like, “I’ll never 6604



1 forget you,” and things like that, right?

2 A. Okay. The best I can remember, Gavin had

3 his own private phone number, own answering machine,

4 because his room had to be sterile. And Michael

5 knew that it was his private -- private phone line.

6 And that’s where Michael would leave the phone

7 messages.

8 Q. And you told the sheriffs when you were

9 discussing those messages, referring to Michael

10 Jackson, “He’s saying it out in the open. You know,

11 you know, he’s saying it probably because he’s ill,

12 trying to cure him.” Do remember that?

13 A. Yes. That again is my own cluelessness.

14 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

15 THE COURT: The part after “Yes”? After

16 “Yes,” is that --

17 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

18 THE COURT: All right. I’ll strike it.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you learned at some

20 point that Star, your son Star, had done a video at

21 Neverland with Mr. Jackson, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when did you learn about that video?

24 A. I think in Miami. That’s when I learned

25 that.

26 Q. And have you ever seen that video?

27 A. I’ve never seen that video.

28 Q. Okay. When Star was at Neverland making 6605



1 that video, did he ever discuss it with you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You’ve described your first trip to

4 Neverland, okay? When was your second trip to

5 Neverland?

6 A. I think it was the -- Aja and Chris’s baby

7 boy’s birthday party that Aja and Chris took

8 their -- almost their entire whole family. He had

9 them flown in from Atlanta, Georgia.

10 Q. And approximately when was that trip?

11 A. That was approximately -- I think it was

12 early September in 2002.

13 Q. After your first trip to Neverland, your

14 children went back with David on a couple of

15 occasions, did they not?

16 A. Not my children. My two boys. They went --

17 do you want me to say?

18 Q. Sure.

19 A. Okay. The initial visit, the best I can

20 remember - always, please, dates, best I can

21 remember - is August 2000. And then both my boys

22 returned with David to Neverland. Davellin did not

23 return. Davellin stood with me. So --

24 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Your Honor, we have

25 lodged with the Court a transcript of the Brad

26 Miller interview, and I believe it’s Exhibit 5008.

27 THE COURT: Thank you.

28 THE CLERK: Is it received into evidence? 6606



1 THE COURT: No.

2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During -- let me get this

3 straight now. You went the first time with David

4 and your children, and there were a couple of times

5 after that that David just took your sons, correct,

6 to Neverland?

7 A. It was one other time.

8 Q. Okay. Was there just one other trip with

9 David and the sons alone?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. And when do you think that was?

12 A. That was right after, also.

13 Q. And how long a trip was that, if you

14 remember?

15 A. The best I remember, it was also -- it was

16 also days.

17 Q. Do you know where your sons stayed, during

18 that trip, in the evening?

19 A. No, I don’t. The best -- you can probably

20 ask the boys.

21 Q. Did you ever ask them yourself where they

22 had stayed during that next trip with David?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever ask David where they had stayed

25 during that trip?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Before 2003, how many times did you

28 personally visit Neverland? 6607



1 A. Before 2003?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Before 2003, best I can remember was the

4 initial visit that I went. I think it was August

5 2000. And then with Chris and Aja’s baby boy’s

6 birthday party in early September 2002.

7 Q. Now, during Chris and Aja’s birthday party,

8 Mr. Jackson was not present, right?

9 A. Yes. Mr. Jackson was not present.

10 Q. And did you stay in the guest quarters?

11 A. Not at all. It was only a day visit. It

12 was a birthday party. That’s all it was.

13 Q. You came in that morning and left that

14 evening?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, at some point your children are at

17 Neverland when the Bashir documentary was filmed,

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do you recall approximately when that

21 was?

22 A. Approximately -- this is the best I can

23 remember. Gavin had done -- had a biopsy done on

24 his kidney. Then the baby boy’s birthday party.

25 And then the film that I now know -- am aware of.

26 Q. How did your children get to Neverland when

27 the Bashir documentary was filmed, if you know?

28 A. Yes. Michael picked them up from my East 6608



1 L.A. apartment. He had a driver, and then they went

2 over there. They stood the night, and they came the

3 next day.

4 Q. Did Chris Tucker introduce you to other

5 celebrities?

6 A. No. Not me. David, yes. And the children.

7 Q. To your knowledge, what celebrities did

8 Chris Tucker introduce David to?

9 A. I don’t know.

10 Q. To your knowledge, what celebrities did

11 Chris Tucker introduce your children to?

12 A. I think one of them was Jackie Chan. And

13 that’s the best that I’m aware of. That’s it.

14 Q. Do you recall Chris Tucker introducing your

15 children to Mike Tyson?

16 A. Oh, that’s correct. Yes. Chris took the

17 children to Mike Tyson’s house.

18 Q. Now, was it in Las Vegas?

19 A. Yes, this was in Las Vegas.

20 Q. Were you there during that trip?

21 A. There’s actually more than one trip there.

22 Q. Okay. Did you take more than one trip to

23 Las Vegas with Chris Tucker?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you take any trips to Las Vegas with

26 Chris Tucker?

27 A. One.

28 Q. Was that the trip when your children met 6609



1 Mike Tyson?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever meet Mike Tyson?

4 A. Never.

5 Q. Okay. Did you at some point meet Louise

6 Palanker?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. And where did you meet Louise Palanker?

9 A. Through the comedy camp. Through Jamie.

10 Q. At some point do you recall Louise Palanker

11 writing a check for $10,000 to you?

12 A. What time period are we talking about? At

13 any time?

14 Q. Sure.

15 A. This was when Gavin had become ill.

16 Q. And do you recall that check being written

17 to Janet Arvizo?

18 A. Yes, I became aware of that.

19 Q. And do you recall it being deposited into

20 your mother’s account?

21 A. It was cashed through my mom’s account.

22 Q. Did you cash that check?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you endorse that check?

25 A. Yes, I think I did.

26 Q. Okay. And do you recall at some point a

27 second $10,000 check being written by Louise

28 Palanker to David Arvizo? 6610



1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And do you recall that check being deposited

3 into your mother’s account?

4 A. It was cashed through my mom’s account.

5 Q. At that point in time, did you have any bank

6 account?

7 A. At that point in time, no, I didn’t.

8 Q. At that point in time did David have any

9 bank accounts?

10 A. No, he didn’t. Well, actually, I think --

11 no. The best I can remember, no, I don’t think so.

12 I don’t know.

13 Q. At that point in time, had you set up any

14 bank account for Gavin’s benefit?

15 A. No.

16 Q. At some point did you set up a bank account

17 for Gavin’s benefit?

18 A. Yes, I think so.

19 Q. Do you know when that was?

20 A. I think that was in -- the best I can

21 remember, maybe October. Maybe November. That’s

22 the best I can remember.

23 Q. And did you personally deposit money into

24 that account?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And was that money that you raised at The

27 Laugh Factory?

28 A. No. 6611



1 Q. Was that money that you got from

2 fund-raisers for Gavin?

3 A. With -- attached to The Laugh Factory?

4 Q. No. Let me rephrase the question.

5 The money that you deposited into the

6 account you set up for Gavin, do you remember that

7 account?

8 A. I -- I don’t think I personally deposited

9 things. They were deposited.

10 Q. Okay. That was an account set up at -- was

11 it Washington Mutual?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that was across from The Laugh Factory,

14 wasn’t it?

15 A. Pardon me?

16 Q. Was that bank near The Laugh Factory?

17 A. There’s Washington Mutuals everywhere.

18 Q. Was this particular branch near The Laugh

19 Factory where you opened the account?

20 A. No, it wasn’t.

21 Q. Where was it?

22 A. The best I can remember, it was -- it was

23 done, I think, in -- well, near the Hollenbeck

24 Division.

25 Q. And you made deposits for the benefit of

26 Gavin, right?

27 A. I think the majority of them, they were

28 deposited on their own. 6612



1 Q. So people went to the bank and deposited

2 money on their own into Gavin’s account?

3 A. I think so, yes.

4 Q. Did you ever deposit any money into that

5 account for Gavin’s benefit?

6 A. The best I can remember, I don’t think so.

7 Q. All right. Now, when the $10,000 check that

8 Louise Palanker wrote to you was placed into your

9 mother’s account, you say that it was basically --

10 cash was taken out immediately; is that correct?

11 A. The best I can remember, I think there had

12 to be a waiting period or something like that. And

13 then it could be cashed.

14 Q. And you endorsed the check, right?

15 A. Yes, I think so.

16 Q. And did you get some of the money?

17 A. No, everything was handed to David. David

18 loved having the sense of authority, and I was like

19 his personal secretary.

20 Q. So you’re saying none of that money went to

21 your benefit, right?

22 A. It was -- like I said, David had the

23 authority. I was like David’s personal secretary.

24 Q. Okay. So you’re telling the jury that you

25 never spent any of that money for yourself, correct?

26 A. I’m telling the jury I was as -- like

27 David’s personal secretary.

28 Q. Did any of that money go to the benefit of 6613



1 Gavin, to your knowledge?

2 A. I think so.

3 Q. Do you know so?

4 A. I think so.

5 Q. You’re not sure?

6 A. No, I think so.

7 Q. Okay. What do you think it went to?

8 A. I --

9 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

10 THE COURT: Overruled.

11 You may answer.

12 THE WITNESS: I think it went to credit

13 cards, to food, to -- just different things.

14 Whatever David would instruct me to do.

15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And the second $10,000

16 check that Louise Palanker wrote was also --

17 A. I was talking -- I was referring to both.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. So it’s going to be the same information.

20 Q. Okay. Let me just go through the second

21 one, make sure.

22 Louise Palanker wrote the first check for

23 $10,000 to Janet Arvizo. It was deposited for cash,

24 and you believe it was spent on matters related to

25 Gavin, correct?

26 A. No. There was -- Louise Palanker, there was

27 no strings attached. It was just to the family.

28 Q. And you’re not sure whether -- what that was 6614



1 spent on. You think credit cards, right?

2 A. We’re talking five years ago. And the best

3 I can remember, it was to the family, and I did

4 everything that David instructed me to do.

5 Q. Let me ask you about the second $10,000

6 check from Louise Palanker.

7 A. Again, I’m lumping both of them. Because it

8 was both the same thing.

9 Q. So as far as the second $10,000 check goes,

10 you pretty much did what David asked you to do with

11 the money, right?

12 A. That’s correct.

13 Q. All right. And other than credit cards,

14 you’re not that sure what it was spent on, right?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You think maybe food, right?

17 A. I think so.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And whatever David kept for his pocket.

20 Q. And you never kept any for your pocket,

21 right?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Were you employed at that point?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. And where were you working then?

26 A. I was a waitress.

27 Q. Okay. Where was that?

28 A. The Bonaventure Hotel. 6615



1 Q. And is that when Gavin was in the hospital?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And did you work there full time?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Okay. Did you learn at some point about

6 some fund-raisers that went on at The Laugh Factory

7 for the benefit of Gavin?

8 A. I came to find out everything afterwards.

9 Q. Did you know those fund-raisers were going

10 on when they actually happened?

11 A. I don’t think so. We’re talking five years

12 ago.

13 Q. So you’re not sure whether you knew they

14 were even going on when they happened, right?

15 A. No, I would find out afterwards.

16 Q. Now, were you in touch with Jamie Masada at

17 this point in time?

18 A. Just a little bit.

19 Q. Was he a friend of yours at that point in

20 time?

21 A. Yes, he is a friend of mine. And he was a

22 friend of mine at that point.

23 Q. And he still is a friend of yours, right?

24 A. He still is a friend.

25 Q. All right. And you had met him when your

26 kids were going through the comedy camp, right?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. You knew him to have assisted Gavin when 6616



1 Gavin was ill in the hospital, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You were in touch with him at that point in

4 time, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But you’re not sure if you knew when these

7 fund-raisers were going on?

8 A. That’s correct. I would find out

9 afterwards. And not because David told me, but

10 because Jamie would tell me.

11 Q. Do you recall Fritz Coleman, the newscaster,

12 helping with any fund-raiser?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you recall David -- excuse me. Do you

15 recall George Lopez ever trying to help Gavin?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Knew nothing about that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Never met with him and thanked him

20 for what he had done for your family?

21 A. No. I thanked him through Ann Lopez,

22 because Ann Lopez would pray with me on the phone.

23 Q. Did you ever meet with George Lopez and give

24 him a gift and thank him for what he had done?

25 A. I had given him a mustard seed faith amulet,

26 because he had told me that he had lost his key

27 chain, so I had given mine, the one I would carry.

28 Q. Okay. So when -- excuse me. 6617



1 When any fund-raisers were being planned at

2 The Laugh Factory for Gavin, you were not involved,

3 right?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And Jamie Masada didn’t tell you what he was

6 planning, right?

7 A. This is correct.

8 Q. Okay. Louise Palanker never told you what

9 she was planning, correct?

10 A. This is correct.

11 Q. And you don’t even know who attended those

12 fund-raisers, right?

13 A. This is correct.

14 Q. Because you never discussed a fund-raiser

15 with Louise Palanker, right?

16 A. This is correct.

17 Q. Never discussed a fund-raiser with Fritz

18 Coleman, right?

19 A. This is correct.

20 Q. And never discussed a fund-raiser with Jamie

21 Masada, right?

22 A. This is correct.

23 Q. Do you recall ever speaking to someone at a

24 local newspaper in El Monte about Gavin’s illness?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And who did you speak to about Gavin’s

27 illness?

28 A. The best I can remember, I think her name 6618



1 was Christie. And she had expressed to me -- I felt

2 sorry for her, because she had told me that -- she

3 was an elderly lady and she was trying to start a

4 new career and -- start a career in journalism,

5 because she never had had the chance. So when she

6 expressed herself like that, I went ahead and spoke

7 to her about my son’s illness.

8 Q. So you were really doing her a favor is what

9 you’re saying.

10 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Are you saying you were

13 trying to help this person with her career; that’s

14 why you spoke about Gavin?

15 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Argumentative and

16 irrelevant.

17 THE COURT: Just a minute.

18 I’ll sustain the objection as argumentative.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall asking Miss

20 Causer to put an article in her newspaper so you

21 could raise money for Gavin?

22 A. I think how this came about, if -- I’m

23 trying to understand his question -- was I went

24 ahead and spoke to her about my son’s illness

25 because the editor there is David’s good friend of

26 his sister, and it was David and his sister that

27 went to this editor and brought this about.

28 I purely wanted to speak to her only about 6619



1 my son’s illness because she had expressed to me

2 that she was an elderly lady trying to start a new

3 career.

4 Q. Did you tell this lady that it cost $12,000

5 per chemo treatment for Gavin?

6 A. What I told this lady was that it was $1200

7 for the -- it’s called Neupogen injections. Gavin

8 had to have these injections right after

9 chemotherapy. So when it appeared that way, it was

10 a typo. They added an extra zero, first of all.

11 And then second, I had expressed to her that

12 continuously we’re experiencing miracles, and that

13 when -- that David had went to the -- to the --

14 where they were processing the Neupogen injections.

15 They made him aware how much this would cost if it

16 would have came out of anybody’s pocket.

17 But, no, at no time did I say it was costing

18 us a single penny. So I told her basically that it

19 was a miracle of God that it was being covered.

20 Q. You’re telling the jury that you told her it

21 was $1200 for a treatment, and there was a typo that

22 said 12,000?

23 A. No -- that’s correct. $1200 for the

24 Neupogen injections, not for the treatment

25 injections. And if you want to be completely --

26 that’s part of his care.

27 Q. Did you see the article that appeared in the

28 Mid Valley News? 6620



1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And did you ever complain about what was in

3 the article?

4 A. David said he was going to take care of it,

5 because David’s sister is the editor’s real good

6 friend, and David’s sister and the editor and David

7 had -- this is where that had originated.

8 Q. You told Miss Causer that several

9 celebrities were doing fund-raisers to help pay for

10 Gavin’s chemotherapy, didn’t you?

11 A. I think what I told her was that they were

12 helping. And to me, “help” meant sitting by Gavin,

13 feeding him the water -- the cantaloupe, things like

14 that. That’s what I meant by “help.”

15 Q. Did you tell Miss Causer that various

16 celebrities were doing fund-raisers to help pay for

17 Gavin’s chemotherapy?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you complain to Ms. Causer that the

20 first article about Gavin did not mention the bank

21 account at Washington Mutual?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And did you ever complain to Miss Causer

24 about the typo which said chemo cost 12,000 per

25 treatment?

26 A. David said he was going to take care of it

27 because the editor was David’s sister’s good friend.

28 Q. Do you recall Miss Causer visiting your 6621



1 address on Ramer Street?

2 A. She did come to where my son’s sterile room

3 was, and that would be my mother’s home.

4 Q. And do you recall her bringing a turkey?

5 A. No, she didn’t bring a turkey.

6 Q. Do you recall anyone from that newspaper

7 ever bringing you a turkey?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And did you ever complain to anyone at that

10 newspaper that a turkey wasn’t enough. You wanted,

11 in effect, money?

12 A. That’s incorrect.

13 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as to the

14 content of an article as impeachment.

15 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.

16 You may answer.

17 She was interrupted. Have the question read

18 back.

19 THE WITNESS: I heard -- I remember it.

20 It’s incorrect.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You do remember the

22 article appearing, though, right?

23 A. The one by -- the one that you guys

24 encouraged to be put out there?

25 Q. No, the one that you encouraged to appear in

26 the Mid Valley News.

27 A. The one that I helped the lady with, yes.

28 But it didn’t say nothing about no turkey dinner 6622



1 there.

2 Q. Did you do anything to help arrange for any

3 fund-raisers for Gavin at any time?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you ever ask anyone for any assistance

6 at any time for Gavin?

7 A. No.

8 Q. At some point you said to the sheriffs you

9 did not trust Chris Tucker, correct?

10 A. He’s taking that out of context.

11 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as irrelevant, the

12 question, and nonresponsive; move to strike.

13 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.

14 THE WITNESS: Chris Tucker --

15 THE COURT: Just a moment.

16 Read the question back to her.

17 (Record read.)

18 THE WITNESS: That’s incorrect. He’s taking

19 it out of context.

20 Chris Tucker is a decent person. It was in

21 response to afterwards, Chris Tucker was budding

22 around with Michael afterwards. That’s all that was

23 referring to. I didn’t trust, because he may have

24 innocently communicated something to Michael, and

25 since I already had -- was in the process of

26 deprogrammizing my children from being brainwashed,

27 that I didn’t want Chris Tucker to communicate

28 something innocently to him, and that was it. Chris 6623



1 Tucker has always been a decent person to my

2 children.

3 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

4 THE COURT: After “That’s incorrect” is

5 stricken.

6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you indicated at one

7 point that Brett Ratner -- excuse me. You indicated

8 at one point that Brett Ratner met your family,

9 true?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you personally meet Brett Ratner?

12 A. I personally didn’t -- was not introduced to

13 him, but I knew that he was the director.

14 Q. And how did you learn who he was?

15 A. Because Chris Tucker had pointed him out to

16 me; that he was the director.

17 Q. Have you ever met him to this day?

18 A. I never was introduced.

19 Q. Have you ever talked to him on the phone?

20 A. I’ve never talked to him on the telephone.

21 Q. Okay. Do you know how many fund-raisers

22 took place at The Laugh Factory to help your family?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know, as you sit here today, when any

25 fund-raisers at The Laugh Factory took place for

26 your family?

27 A. As I sit here today how many?

28 Q. Yes. 6624



1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know approximately when any

3 fund-raisers took place at The Laugh Factory for

4 your family?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever see Jamie Masada at the

7 hospital when Gavin was ill?

8 A. I think -- I think maybe once. I think

9 maybe once.

10 Q. And did you ever discuss with Jamie Masada

11 efforts being made to raise money at The Laugh

12 Factory?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you recall Fritz Coleman, the newscaster,

15 visiting your home in East Los Angeles?

16 A. Yes, I do. This was before my son was ill.

17 Q. Were you there during the visit?

18 A. Yes, I was there.

19 Q. Were you ever aware at any time that Fritz

20 Coleman had tried to raise some money for your

21 family?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When’s the last time you saw Fritz Coleman?

24 A. Let me see. I think the best I can remember

25 was -- I think he was at the hospital and he was

26 already leaving when I was arriving. I think that’s

27 the best I can remember. So it was a matter of just

28 minutes. 6625



1 Q. Okay. Did you ever speak to comedian George

2 Lopez about Gavin?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And approximately when did you speak to

5 comedian George Lopez about Gavin?

6 A. I think -- I think when he first became ill,

7 and then the next time when he was visiting Gavin.

8 And that’s -- I gave him the mustard seed amulet key

9 chain.

10 Q. Did you ever know anything about George

11 Lopez trying to put together a fund-raiser for

12 Gavin?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ever discuss with Louise Palanker

15 ways to raise money for the family?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know why Louise Palanker wrote her

18 first $10,000 check to Janet Arvizo?

19 A. I think that’s because David requested that

20 way.

21 Q. Okay. You don’t know for sure, right?

22 A. Well, I believe Wheezy, because she’s the

23 one that wrote the check for the money.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. “Wheezy” is Louise Palanker.

26 Q. Were you the signatory on the bank account

27 at Washington Mutual, which was set up for the

28 benefit of Gavin? 6626



1 A. What does signatory mean?

2 Q. Were you the one who would actually -- could

3 sign to withdraw money from the bank?

4 A. Yes. David requested it that way because

5 David owed his brother in the thousands of dollars,

6 so he wanted to point out to his brother Ray that I

7 was the one that -- that’s it.

8 Q. Was he a signatory on that account, to your

9 knowledge?

10 A. No, he wasn’t.

11 Q. Did you ever withdraw any money from the

12 account?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. How much do you think you withdrew?

15 A. Well, everything that had always been put

16 in.

17 Q. Do you remember roughly how much was in

18 there at any time?

19 A. No. I can’t remember.

20 Q. Were there thousands of dollars in there, to

21 your knowledge?

22 A. There was thousands. And I went ahead and

23 gave all that information to the police and the

24 D.A.’s Office.

25 Q. Did you ever withdraw any money yourself

26 from that account?

27 A. Yes, of course I did.

28 Q. Did you withdraw thousands of dollars from 6627



1 that account?

2 A. Yes, I sure did.

3 Q. Was any of that money used for medical

4 expenses?

5 A. No, there was no need for medical expenses

6 in the hospital, because everything was covered

7 through Kaiser.

8 Q. Okay. And were you ever aware that anyone

9 donated money to that account to help with medical

10 expenses?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, you’ve told the jury you told someone

13 at the Mid Valley News about $1200 per type of

14 treatment, correct?

15 A. And I was expressing to her that -- that

16 thank God our family is experiencing a lot of

17 miracles, and that was covered.

18 Q. And you never mentioned the word

19 “chemotherapy” to that person, true?

20 A. I think I did. It was -- it was a little

21 story about my son being ill.

22 Q. Did you ever mention the cost of

23 chemotherapy to Miss Causer?

24 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as asked and

25 answered.

26 THE COURT: Overruled.

27 You may answer.

28 THE WITNESS: I think what I was telling her 6628



1 was a story complete about the miracles that we were

2 experiencing. That’s it.

3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you know the article

4 was going to be published?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you see it when it was published?

7 A. Yes, I did. And that’s when David said he

8 was going to take care of it.

9 Q. And based on what you read, did you think it

10 was a request for assistance?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Now, did you go with Chris Tucker to

13 Knott’s Berry Farm?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And did your children?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know when that was?

18 A. Yes. They went with Chris, Aja, David and

19 the children.

20 Q. Do you know approximately when that was?

21 A. When Gavin was ill.

22 Q. Were you talking to Aja Pryor on a regular

23 basis at that point?

24 A. I don’t think so.

25 Q. Okay. When did you start communicating with

26 Aja Pryor on a pretty regular basis?

27 A. Our friendship -- probably -- it just grew

28 very slowly, to the point where we were -- we were 6629



1 speaking almost -- almost maybe a few -- four times

2 a week. But it started out very slow.

3 Q. Did you ever tell Aja Pryor that all of the

4 money that came from the fund-raisers for Gavin was

5 spent on David’s drug habit?

6 A. I don’t think so. It may have --

7 Q. No?

8 A. It may have probably -- I know the children

9 and I had conversations with her. So --

10 Q. Did you ever tell Aja Pryor that the money

11 from the fund-raisers for Gavin was spent on David’s

12 drug habit?

13 A. I don’t think so.

14 Q. Do you know for sure?

15 A. I’m for sure more towards I don’t think so.

16 Q. Isn’t it true that after you told Aja Pryor

17 that the money for the fund-raisers was spent by

18 David on drugs, she went to her bank and got a $600

19 check for you and the family?

20 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Compound and

21 assuming facts not in evidence.

22 THE COURT: I’ll sustain the compound.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember Aja Pryor

24 going to a bank and getting a $600 cashier’s check

25 for you and the family?

26 A. He’s incorrect.

27 Q. Did she ever do that?

28 A. You’re letting me answer? 6630



1 Okay. Aja was leaving out of town to

2 Atlanta, Georgia. She had told me -- I had -- me

3 and the children had bought her, Chris and the baby

4 some Christmas gifts. Aja then told me, “Janet, I

5 don’t have time for shopping. Please buy the

6 children some Christmas gifts.” She’s flying out --

7 out of town to go to Atlanta, Georgia. And that’s

8 what happened.

9 Q. But you never mentioned to Aja anything

10 about fund-raisers for Gavin, true?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You never mentioned to Aja that money from

13 fund-raisers went to support David’s drug habit?

14 A. I don’t think so.

15 Q. Do you remember telling Aja that David was

16 taking money from fund-raisers for Gavin?

17 A. I don’t think so.

18 Q. Do you remember having a discussion about

19 fund-raisers for Gavin with anybody?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you remember receiving any money from

22 Chris Tucker?

23 A. I became aware of this afterwards, now,

24 through the police investigation, that he had wired

25 some money into the account.

26 Q. Which account?

27 A. The Washington Mutual.

28 Q. That was the account you were a signatory 6631



1 on, correct?

2 A. You’ve explained “signatory.” So it’s still

3 the same meaning the way you’re using it, correct?

4 Q. Yes, it is.

5 A. Yes. Yes. Which I withdrew the money and

6 gave it to David.

7 Q. And you’re saying -- telling the jury under

8 oath that you never knew Chris Tucker had wired that

9 money into that account until the police told you?

10 A. That’s correct.

11 Q. Do you know approximately when this was?

12 A. Now, per the police investigation, I think

13 it was -- I think it was in December or January. I

14 think it was within those time -- months.

15 Q. And you had received --

16 A. And at that point, that’s when Chris and --

17 David was going everywhere with Chris.

18 Q. And that’s the point in time where you were

19 associating quite a bit with Aja, right?

20 A. No, our friendship did not begin with Aja

21 until -- until David was out of the picture. I

22 hardly even spoke to Aja. My friendship did not

23 begin with her until David was out of the picture.

24 Q. And where did the 2,000 from Chris Tucker

25 go, if you know?

26 A. Well, yeah, I withdrew it and gave it to

27 David, and that’s when David had gone to Las Vegas.

28 Q. So, to your knowledge, you gave that money 6632



1 to David and it wasn’t used for the benefit of

2 Gavin, right?

3 A. This is correct.

4 Q. Do you recall any discussion with Aja or

5 Chris Tucker about your family getting the use of

6 one of Chris’s cars?

7 A. Okay, say that again.

8 Q. Do you recall any discussion with Chris

9 Tucker or Aja about your family using one of Chris’s

10 vehicles?

11 A. Okay. I’m -- I don’t know what he’s asking.

12 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as nonresponsive, or

13 vague. She doesn’t understand the question.

14 THE COURT: Overruled. I’ll have the

15 question read back.

16 THE WITNESS: Okay.

17 (Record read.)

18 THE WITNESS: It’s incorrect the way he’s

19 saying it.

20 Chris -- Aja had her birthday. Chris had

21 taken the children to go pick out a brand-new

22 Mercedes for Aja. The children picked out the color

23 for Aja, and Chris went ahead and purchased it. And

24 that was Chris’s gift, birthday gift, to Aja.

25 And so the car that Aja was driving, months

26 later, Chris and Aja gave it to me and the children

27 for a Christmas gift, but I never have driven it.

28 I don’t have it. I don’t have ownership of it. But 6633



1 that’s what he’s referring to.

2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever ask anyone if

3 you could use that car?

4 A. Never.

5 Q. Did you ever complain to anyone that you

6 were supposed to be able to own that car?

7 A. Never.

8 Q. How did you learn about the car?

9 A. Well, because Chris had given me the keys

10 and told me, “This is a Christmas gift. This is

11 Aja’s old car, but we -- Aja and me want you and the

12 kids to have it,” because Aja had been given for her

13 birthday a brand-new Mercedes.

14 Q. Didn’t you complain to Aja that you had no

15 car to drive?

16 A. No, I didn’t complain to Aja. It was okay

17 for me. I drove -- I was on the bus continuously.

18 Q. Did you ever tell Chris you needed a car to

19 drive?

20 A. Never.

21 Q. And never told that to Aja either, right?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever know why Chris Tucker would

24 even discuss letting you use his car?

25 A. He would never let me use his car. Like I

26 said, he gave it to me and the kids as a Christmas

27 gift, because it was Aja’s old car that was just

28 sitting in her driveway. No one had no -- no need 6634



1 for it.

2 Q. To your knowledge, did Davellin ever call

3 Aja Pryor on your behalf asking for the keys to the

4 car?

5 A. No, Chris had already given me the keys.

6 Q. And you think he just came over there one

7 day and just said, “Here’s a gift”?

8 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.

9 THE COURT: Sustained.

10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know why Mr. Tucker

11 was giving a gift of a car to you?

12 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Asked and answered

13 and speculative.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall Davellin

16 telling Aja Pryor words to the effect, “I can’t wait

17 until you get another new car. Then I can have the

18 Mercedes”? Do you recall that ever?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you recall complaining to Aja Pryor about

21 the Germans?

22 A. Yes. I made her aware. That’s another

23 thing I slipped in. I tried. I tried my best.

24 Q. You told her you didn’t like these German

25 people around Michael Jackson, correct?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Well, you did complain about them to her,

28 right? 6635



1 A. I didn’t complain. I made her aware. I

2 tried to make different people aware so me and my

3 children could get help.

4 Q. You told Aja Pryor you didn’t like the

5 Germans, right?

6 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You never complained to

8 Aja Pryor about being held against your will at any

9 time, did you?

10 MR. ZONEN: I believe there was an

11 objection, Your Honor.

12 MR. MESEREAU: Oh.

13 THE COURT: He changed the question, so --

14 THE WITNESS: I made her aware that they

15 were not letting us go.

16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: To your knowledge, did she

17 ever do anything about that?

18 A. I don’t know.

19 Q. After she drove your children to Neverland,

20 did you speak to her?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How did you know your children got to

23 Neverland?

24 A. Because they had -- Michael’s people had

25 tabs on them. They were being followed.

26 Q. How did you know your children got to

27 Neverland?

28 A. Because Frank told Vinnie and Vinnie told 6636



1 me.

2 Q. And did you ever tell it to Aja Pryor after

3 she drove the children?

4 A. No. On that day, no.

5 Q. Do you remember telling Mrs. Pryor that you

6 had errands to run and asked her to drive your

7 children to Neverland?

8 A. Me?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. Did you tell Aja Pryor about your

12 friendship with Marie Nicole?

13 A. Never.

14 Q. Ever tell Aja Pryor you liked the Cascio

15 children?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Ever talk with Aja Pryor about Miko Brando?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know who Miko Brando is?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who is Miko Brando?

22 A. He would die for Michael. That’s who he is.

23 Q. Who is Miko Brando, if you know?

24 A. I think --

25 MR. ZONEN: Objection; lack of foundation.

26 THE COURT: Overruled.

27 MR. ZONEN: And relevance.

28 THE COURT: Overruled. 6637



1 You may answer.

2 THE WITNESS: I think I met him once. He

3 had actually came to bring --

4 THE COURT: Just a minute. The question is,

5 who is Miko Brando?

6 THE WITNESS: He’s one of Michael’s damage

7 control, personnel assistant. He has a lot of

8 titles.

9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know if he’s

10 related to the late Marlon Brando?

11 A. This I became aware.

12 Q. Okay. What did you become aware of?

13 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as speculative; lack

14 of foundation; and relevance.

15 THE COURT: Sustained.

16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you meet Miko Brando

17 at Neverland?

18 A. Yes. Once.

19 Q. Approximately when was that?

20 A. When he came to deliver Mr. Jackson some

21 things.

22 Q. Was it your understanding he was the son of

23 Marlon Brando?

24 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

25 THE WITNESS: At that time, no.

26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever have a

27 discussion with --

28 THE COURT: Just a moment. 6638



1 The objection is sustained. The answer is

2 stricken. Next question.

3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever have a

4 discussion with Miko Brando?

5 A. No.

6 Q. But you met him, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And was it your understanding that he

9 worked at Neverland?

10 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

11 THE COURT: Overruled.

12 You may answer.

13 THE WITNESS: Okay. It was my understanding

14 that he had multiple roles, multiple titles. One

15 being damage control. Another one, positive PR.

16 Another one personal assistant. He wore many hats.

17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling

18 Aja Pryor that you had learned that Michael Jackson

19 was not going on the Brazil trip?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you remember ever telling Aja Pryor that

22 once you learned Michael Jackson was not going on

23 the Brazil trip, you didn’t want to go?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And it’s your testimony you never discussed

26 the Brazil trip at any time with Aja?

27 A. I’m -- like I said to different people in

28 the midst of the conversation, I tried to slip 6639



1 something in as to what was happening.

2 Q. Do you recall complaining to Aja Pryor that

3 Michael Jackson was making money on the Maury Povich

4 show and your family was getting nothing?

5 A. Never.

6 Q. Do you recall commenting to Mrs. Pryor that

7 a college fund was being set up for Gavin by Michael

8 Jackson?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you remember telling Aja Pryor, “What

11 good will a college fund do for my son? He may not

12 be alive in ten years”? Do you remember saying

13 that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you remember telling Aja Pryor that you

16 had not signed releases for the rebuttal video?

17 A. He’s incorrect. No.

18 Q. Did you ever discuss the rebuttal video with

19 Aja Pryor?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Ever complain to Aja Pryor that phone calls

22 were being monitored at Neverland?

23 A. I informed her that the phone calls were

24 being monitored. Like I said, I tried to make

25 people aware of what really was happening in there.

26 Q. Did you make your lawyer, Michael Manning,

27 aware at any time?

28 A. Yes, I did. 6640



1 Q. Michael Manning never called the police,

2 right?

3 A. That’s right.

4 MR. ZONEN: Objection; lack of foundation.

5 THE COURT: Sustained. The answer’s

6 stricken.

7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ask Louise

8 Palanker if you could meet her at a Von’s?

9 A. I think I did. That’s when I was in a

10 period of -- a period -- in the Calabasas period.

11 Q. Did you ask Louise Palanker if you can meet

12 her at her home?

13 A. I think I did. I was trying anything

14 possible to leave the grasp of him and his people.

15 Q. Do you know when you first met Bill

16 Dickerman, the attorney?

17 A. I think I met him approximately -- the best

18 I can remember is the 25th, because it was the same

19 day that I had that visit, and it was on the way to

20 over there.

21 Q. Do you remember complaining to Aja Pryor

22 that you were being kept away from Michael Jackson?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever complain to her that the

25 Germans were keeping you away from Michael Jackson?

26 A. No. What I was telling her was that they

27 were keeping -- maybe you’re taking that out of

28 context; that I wasn’t able to see my children 6641



1 anymore.

2 Q. Did you ever complain to anyone that the

3 people around Michael Jackson were separating Mr.

4 Jackson from you and your family?

5 A. No, no. They were separating me from my

6 children. By the end, I had no control of my kids

7 anymore. I had lost them.

8 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

9 THE COURT: Denied.

10 THE WITNESS: Your Honor? I’m sorry, but I

11 have to go to the rest room.

12 THE COURT: All right.

13 THE WITNESS: I’ve been holding it here.

14 THE COURT: All right. Would you take her

15 back there?

16 MR. MESEREAU: Can Mr. Jackson go as well?

17 THE COURT: We’re not taking a break. Just

18 to the witness.

19 Let’s see, Mr. Mesereau, maybe someone from

20 the District Attorney on the hard drives, if you’ll

21 approach the bench. Maybe we could discuss that for

22 a moment.

23 MR. MESEREAU: If I could, Your Honor, Mr.

24 Sanger would --

25 THE COURT: Yes. Whoever. That’s fine.

26 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)

27 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

28 THE COURT: Are you ready? 6642



1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

2 THE COURT: Excuse me. Go ahead, Mr.

3 Mesereau.

4 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.

5 Q. Ms. Arvizo, to this date, have you ever

6 watched the Maury Povich rebuttal video?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Ever discussed it with anybody?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And did I hear you correctly that you said

11 you had never actually watched the entire Bashir

12 documentary?

13 A. That’s correct. In Miami I wanted to see

14 it. Now I don’t want to see it.

15 Q. Did you ever discuss the Bashir documentary

16 with anyone?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, you indicated that you saw Mr. Jackson

19 licking your son’s head on a plane, right?

20 A. Yes. This is correct.

21 Q. And you told the jury you at first did not

22 believe what you were seeing, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After that flight, did you ever allow your

25 children back to Neverland?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. How many times?

28 A. Well, the whole entire time until we 6643



1 permanently left in March.

2 Q. If you can recall, how many times did you

3 let your children go back to Neverland after you

4 claim you saw your son’s head being licked?

5 A. The whole entire time until March.

6 Q. And how many times would that be, back and

7 forth?

8 A. The best -- I can’t remember, but we’ve

9 already walked through that.

10 Q. Do you think it was four times you let your

11 children go back to Neverland?

12 A. They were there the whole entire time except

13 for that time that Jesus had taken us out. Poor

14 judgment on my part.

15 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

16 THE WITNESS: I know now.

17 THE COURT: Just a moment.

18 Strike the last sentence. Go ahead.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Would it be safe to say

20 you’re not sure how many times your kids returned to

21 Neverland after the head-licking incident?

22 A. The only time my children were out -- out of

23 their grasp was when Jesus had let -- taken me and

24 my children to my mom’s house. But the rest of the

25 time, they were -- even if they were outside,

26 Michael’s people were still on my children.

27 So if you want to get very specific, my

28 children only made it out of there once. Because 6644



1 all the other entire time, Michael’s people were on

2 them.

3 Q. How many times did they go back and forth to

4 Neverland after --

5 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

6 THE COURT: He wasn’t allowed to finish his

7 question.

8 Go ahead, Counsel.

9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did your children go back

10 and forth to Neverland after the Jesus incident?

11 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

12 THE COURT: Overruled.

13 You may answer.

14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Except for that time

15 with Jesus, the rest of the entire time, Michael’s

16 people were on my children.

17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When did you first learn

18 that Gavin claimed he’d been drinking alcohol at

19 Neverland?

20 A. The day I never went back. That’s the day.

21 And it’s burned in here.

22 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

23 THE COURT: Denied.

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know what day that

25 was?

26 A. Yes. I will never forget the date. It was

27 March 10th. 4 a.m., to be exact.

28 Q. You had never had any indication that Gavin 6645



1 had ever touched alcohol before that day, correct?

2 A. This is correct. I know different now.

3 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

4 THE COURT: Strike the last sentence.

5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling

6 the Santa Barbara sheriffs in an interview, “There’s

7 plenty of police out there that can protect my

8 kids”?

9 A. He’s --

10 MR. ZONEN: Vague as to time; objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When did you first tell

13 anyone that there were threats to kill your family

14 from people associated with Michael Jackson?

15 A. I think I -- I think the best I can

16 remember -- the best I can remember -- let’s see.

17 The best I think I can remember is Mr. Dickerman.

18 Q. Was that in a meeting with Jamie Masada?

19 A. I don’t remember that. I just remember

20 being -- when I finally was able to say everything

21 was with the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Offices --

22 officers.

23 Q. Do you know approximately what month that

24 was?

25 A. I think -- the best I can remember, finally

26 I think it was in July. I think. That’s the best I

27 can remember.

28 Q. And that was after you had met with Larry 6646



1 Feldman, correct?

2 A. Oh, yes.

3 Q. It was actually long after you had first met

4 with Attorney Larry Feldman, right?

5 A. My -- my meetings with Mr. Feldman, he

6 couldn’t make out -- we were basically all, you

7 know, cuckoos after him. You know, it was all

8 cuckoo. Our whole home environment was cuckoo. So

9 he basically wanted to make heads and tails. He

10 just basically wanted to help.

11 Q. And your discussion about anyone threatening

12 to kill your family first occurred long after you

13 met Attorney Larry Feldman, true?

14 A. I wanted to tell that to the sheriffs. I

15 wanted to tell that to the police officers, let them

16 be the first. I remember asking Mr. Dickerman that

17 I wanted to share that information with the police.

18 Q. And in none of Mr. Dickerman’s letters

19 involving your family did he talk about threats to

20 kill, correct?

21 A. Because I expressed to him that I wanted to

22 tell the police, because that would have gave them

23 the opportunity to see that I was trying to make

24 contact with the police.

25 Q. Do you remember going shopping while you

26 were staying at the Calabasas Inn?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And tell the jury where you went shopping. 6647



1 A. I think it was -- I think it was an outlet

2 store, and also a Robinson’s-May. And this is

3 what -- with their positive PR film crew following

4 us.

5 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

6 THE COURT: Sustained as to the last

7 sentence.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: While you were shopping,

9 you didn’t ever complain to anyone you were being

10 held against your will, true?

11 A. Incorrect. I called Wheezy.

12 Q. Did you call the police?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If you could call Wheezy, why couldn’t you

15 call the police?

16 A. Because I couldn’t. I was hoping she would.

17 Q. Which phone did you use to call Wheezy?

18 A. I don’t remember.

19 Q. Was it a cell phone?

20 A. I had no cell phone at that time.

21 Q. Was it a phone in the hotel?

22 A. I don’t think so.

23 Q. Was it a phone at the shopping center?

24 A. I don’t remember.

25 Q. You didn’t dial 9-1-1, did you?

26 A. That’s correct. But I have now.

27 Q. After meeting with two attorneys, correct?

28 A. He’s incorrect. 6648



1 Q. When you appeared for the Department of

2 Children’s & Social Services interviews, did you

3 believe you, yourself, were being investigated?

4 A. Can you be more clear?

5 Q. Sure. Sure. When you had the meeting with

6 the Department of Children & Social Services

7 representatives at Major Jackson’s home, did you

8 believe you were being investigated?

9 A. Um --

10 Q. Yes or no, if you could, please.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And did you believe you were being

13 investigated because someone had made a complaint

14 about the Bashir documentary?

15 A. All this I came to find out after the

16 meeting. But before the meeting, I had no

17 understanding whatsoever.

18 Q. So you didn’t know why you were there?

19 A. This is correct.

20 Q. Did you ever tell the sheriffs that you were

21 there because somebody complained about the Bashir

22 documentary called “Living with Michael Jackson” and

23 wanted the mother investigated?

24 A. Yes, I came to find this after.

25 Q. Do you remember at the beginning of your

26 interview with the Department of Children & Family

27 Services you asked what your rights were?

28 A. Yes. 6649



1 Q. And why did you do that?

2 A. Because that was Vicki Podberesky’s

3 instructions.

4 Q. Vicki Podberesky was the lawyer that you had

5 spoken to, right?

6 A. This is the attorney who put fear in me

7 right before the video, and she claimed she was

8 Michael Jackson’s attorney and Geragos’s attorney.

9 Q. The fear she put into you was you better

10 handle it properly or you could lose your children,

11 correct?

12 A. The fear that she put in me was that I could

13 possibly have my children ripped away from me

14 forever and probably won’t see them for a long time.

15 That’s the fear she put in me.

16 Q. Did you tell her you had been investigated

17 on other occasions by the Department of Children &

18 Family Services?

19 A. No. Brad Miller, his P.I., dialed the phone

20 number, gave me his cell phone, and there she was.

21 Q. And did you speak to her?

22 A. Yes, she spoke to me.

23 Q. Did she give you advice about how to handle

24 a meeting with the Department of Children & Family

25 Services, to your knowledge?

26 A. Because I declined - she wanted to be

27 present - she had gave me information, and now I

28 know why. They wanted all -- 6650



1 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.

3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How long was your

4 interview with the Department of Children & Family

5 Services?

6 A. Well, let me see. Asaf arrived there. He

7 tape-recorded the meeting illegally, and then maybe

8 a total of -- maybe a total of about -- maybe about,

9 total, about 35, 30, 40 minutes. Because the time

10 frame of Asaf tape-recording the meeting was about

11 20 minutes.

12 Q. By the way, on one of your sheriff’s

13 interviews, do you recall saying that there are no

14 clocks or calendars at Neverland?

15 A. What I remember was that -- what I was

16 trying to communicate, that in my bedroom, I had

17 no -- no -- none of these things in my bedroom.

18 Q. You told them at Neverland there are no

19 clocks, correct?

20 A. Yes. Because I was in the guesthouse. For

21 the end part of the time, I wasn’t allowed to come

22 out anymore.

23 Q. Are there no clocks at Neverland?

24 A. On the ground, yes, there is.

25 Q. Now, the people you claim were telling you

26 that your family were going to be killed are Frank,

27 Vinnie, Dieter, and Ron, right?

28 A. Right. Ronald and Dieter were replaced by 6651



1 Frank and Vinnie. But the initial meeting was with

2 Michael. Michael told me. But what started it off

3 was Michael.

4 Q. Telling you your family was going to be

5 killed --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- is that what you’re saying?

8 A. First it was Gavin, and then it went to my

9 three children, in Miami.

10 Q. Do you recall ever telling a sheriff’s

11 investigator that Miller told you that Mr. Jackson

12 was buying you a house and an apartment?

13 A. I don’t remember saying that.

14 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

15 show you a page of the transcript of your interview?

16 A. What I think he’s referring is totally

17 different. He’s taking it maybe out of context.

18 But, yeah, bring it on over.

19 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

20 THE COURT: Yes.

21 MR. ZONEN: What page is that, Counsel?

22 MR. MESEREAU: It’s nine of this interview.

23 The interview is August 13th, 2003.

24 MR. ZONEN: Oh, thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. This is what I had

26 talked to you about already; that we had to leave

27 the country.

28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to 6652



1 look at that page?

2 A. I just looked at the highlighted words.

3 I didn’t read anything.

4 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what

5 you told the sheriffs?

6 A. That’s because we had to leave the country.

7 Q. Did you tell the sheriffs that Brad Miller

8 told you that they were buying you a house and an

9 apartment?

10 A. What I was trying to point out to the police

11 department was this is what they were trying to do

12 in order for me to leave the country. And there’s

13 no house and no apartment, because I don’t want to

14 leave the country. And because they’re lies. What

15 I was trying to point out is they were using

16 different tactics.

17 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as nonresponsive.

18 THE COURT: Sustained.

19 THE WITNESS: Because they wanted me out of

20 the country.

21 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

22 THE COURT: I had sustained the objection.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you think you were

24 getting a house from Michael Jackson?

25 A. No, I was pointing out to the police that

26 they were trying to do everything possible to get

27 access into my apartment, to go clean it up, to go

28 remove all the letters and items that Michael had 6653



1 given Gavin. This is what I was trying to point out

2 to the police. And second, that they wanted me and

3 my children out of this country really bad.

4 Q. Did you tell the jury that the plan was for

5 you to go to Brazil and never come back?

6 A. That’s -- that’s what their plan was

7 ultimately. That they were going to decide --

8 depending if they did positive PR, cleaned all the

9 mess for Michael, then they were going to decide at

10 that point in time if I could return. “If.”

11 Q. Did you ever see any documents that said it

12 was a two-week trip?

13 A. That don’t matter.

14 Q. Did you ever see any documents that said the

15 trip to Brazil was a two-week trip?

16 A. Don’t -- and if you look at the documents,

17 it’s not going to be within the time frame that I

18 was supposed to leave. They choreograph everything.

19 Q. Did anyone ever mention to you in any form,

20 verbal or in a document, that this was a planned

21 two-week trip?

22 A. No, it wasn’t. I know that.

23 Q. Did you ever see a document that said that?

24 A. Never. But like I said, they choreograph

25 everything.

26 Q. Okay. So when you told the sheriffs that

27 Brad Miller said they were buying you a house and an

28 apartment, you were not suggesting you wanted one, 6654



1 right?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Okay. Did you tell the Department of Social

4 Services that your children were being sent to a

5 private school?

6 A. No, I didn’t. Vinnie himself, straight from

7 his mouth, told Karen Walker.

8 Q. That your kids were going to a private

9 school?

10 A. Yes. This is another lie.

11 Q. Okay. Did you believe Vinnie when he said

12 that?

13 A. No. That’s why I was behind Karen Walker

14 saying, “No.” I was going like that.

15 Q. Is that when you didn’t tell Karen Walker

16 you were held against your will?

17 A. This is correct.

18 Q. Now, you make some references in some of

19 your sheriff’s interviews to speaking in code. Do

20 you remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what code were you speaking in?

23 A. This is what I’ve already explained to the

24 jurors, is that in the midst of my conversations I’d

25 try to slip something in, or I would say one word,

26 say another sentence and say another word, hoping

27 that when a person would sit or think, they’d say,

28 “Wait a minute, that word doesn’t match this.” I 6655



1 was constantly trying to leave clues for people.

2 Q. Did you leave any clues for Major Jay

3 Jackson when you stayed at his home?

4 A. Yes, I tried. I tried. Yes. When I

5 finally left the nail shop, that’s when I finally

6 told him everything. Because Asaf had pointed out

7 that there was another tape-recording being -- and

8 Frank and Vinnie told me they can hear everything,

9 so I believed them. I believed them.

10 Q. So you believed Jay Jackson’s phones were

11 being tapped?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you believe the phones at the salon were

14 being tapped?

15 A. When I finally was able, I told him, “Come

16 on over,” and then that was it. Permanently left

17 Neverland forever, thank God.

18 Q. Did you believe the phones at the salon were

19 being tapped?

20 A. No. That’s why -- I didn’t know what they

21 could do. Because they said I was being constantly

22 listened and monitored, so I went ahead and tried.

23 Q. Do you remember visiting a federal building

24 to get a passport?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Who were you with?

27 A. Vinnie, the people that were following us.

28 Q. Do you remember walking into that federal 6656



1 building to get your passport?

2 A. Yes. Vinnie and the people that were

3 following us, yes.

4 Q. Do you remember speaking to anyone in that

5 federal building as you got your passports?

6 A. No. I just stood by Vinnie and the

7 children, and that’s it.

8 Q. Did you see any federal employees or agents

9 in that federal building?

10 A. Yes, and I wanted to reach for them so bad.

11 Q. Did you complain to any of them that you

12 were being held against your will?

13 A. No, because at that point my parents’ lives

14 were at risk. And until I can see my parents and

15 tell them what was the danger, I couldn’t say a

16 single thing. They had full control of me.

17 Q. Did you complain to anyone in that federal

18 building that any crimes were being committed

19 against you or your family?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Did you ever try to dial 9-1-1 to reach any

22 police officer?

23 A. No. But I have now.

24 Q. Now, you’re aware that in your family law

25 proceeding, your ex-husband David claims that you

26 sat down and scripted your children in the J.C.

27 Penney case, correct?

28 A. Yes. Amongst many things David has said. 6657



1 Q. Did you ever sit down and rehearse your

2 children about what to say in depositions in the

3 J.C. Penney case?

4 A. He’s giving me too much credit. No.

5 Q. To your knowledge, did your children always

6 tell the truth when they testified under oath in the

7 J.C. Penney case?

8 A. Except for the part about David.

9 Q. What about the part about your injuries?

10 Did they tell the truth, to your knowledge?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Now, that was when -- that was a

13 situation where Gavin was caught running out of the

14 store with something that wasn’t paid for, correct?

15 A. This is what I came to understand, because I

16 wasn’t present when that happened.

17 Q. And you told the police that Gavin was just

18 trying to trick his father into paying for those

19 goods, right?

20 A. No, I did not tell them that.

21 Q. What did you tell them the reason Gavin did

22 that was?

23 A. At that point, when I talked to the police,

24 I had -- I wasn’t aware of what happened.

25 Q. Did you ever learn that that was the reason

26 why Gavin left the store with unpurchased goods?

27 A. Yes, I came to find out afterwards. The

28 police told me themself. 6658



1 Q. Now, did you ever learn about an incident

2 with George Lopez where there was a claim that money

3 had been taken from Gavin’s wallet?

4 A. I came to find out afterwards by Jamie.

5 Q. And did you talk to George ever about that

6 event?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Ever talk to his wife about that event?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Ever talk to David about that event?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Ever talk to Gavin about that event?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, you told the sheriffs that Mr.

15 Jackson’s people had done background investigations

16 on Jay Jackson. Do you remember saying that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And how did you know that anyone associated

19 with Mr. Jackson had done a background investigation

20 on Jay Jackson?

21 A. His dear damage control people and Frank

22 told me that.

23 Q. They told you they had checked out who Jay

24 Jackson was?

25 A. Yes, Frank told me that.

26 Q. Okay. So you were aware that Mr. Geragos’s

27 employees were doing investigations into who you

28 were and Jay Jackson -- 6659



1 A. No, you’re incorrect.

2 Q. -- was, correct?

3 A. Frank had told me that they had done all

4 this information so they can choreograph their

5 story. That’s why.

6 Q. In that recorded phone conversation you had

7 with Frank which we played on Friday, you never

8 mention anything about killers, do you?

9 A. I’m sure I did. And since he had control of

10 that, illegally taping, I’m sure they either erased

11 it, manipulated it or took it off. But if it was

12 left to me, I would have left it on there. But it

13 didn’t benefit him to leave it on there.

14 Q. You never mention killers in that recorded

15 phone conversation, do you?

16 A. I’m sure I did. But Frank had control of

17 the tape.

18 Q. Okay. Do you recall a blood drive at

19 Neverland for Gavin?

20 A. Yes, I was the one responsible for that.

21 Anywhere where I can gather 50 people or more,

22 Kaiser was willing to go and take their own

23 bloodmobile, because it benefitted not just Gavin,

24 many, many children and hospital patients. So I was

25 continuously asking for anybody that can gather more

26 than 50 people, that Kaiser themself would go over

27 there.

28 Q. And Mr. Jackson allowed you to use his 6660



1 property for a blood drive, correct?

2 A. All his employees gave blood. All of his

3 employees that wanted to could donate blood. Not

4 just to Gavin, but to many people, because they were

5 trying to find O negative, C and B negative blood

6 for Gavin.

7 Q. And to your knowledge, Mr. Jackson allowed

8 you to do this blood drive on his property, correct?

9 A. Yes, this is correct.

10 Q. And approximately when was this blood drive?

11 A. Oh, when Gavin was ill in 2000.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. But, you know, he wasn’t the only one.

14 There was many church groups. Many, many people

15 that had gathered. And the bloodmobile would go out

16 to those particular places.

17 Q. At one point you told the sheriffs that you

18 didn’t think Michael was really involved in that,

19 right?

20 A. Yes, and I’ve also communicated to you. In

21 the beginning, I thought it was only the Germans,

22 but now I know different per their hard work,

23 investigative working, that it was different.

24 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as

25 nonresponsive and also object to the question as

26 vague. Involved with what?

27 MR. MESEREAU: I can rephrase it, Your

28 Honor. 6661



1 THE COURT: Well, now the time to object to

2 the question is long gone, but I’ll sustain the

3 objection to the last part of the answer.

4 Next question.

5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you work with someone

6 named Grace at the blood drive for Gavin?

7 A. No, I didn’t work there. All I had done was

8 ask Grace if she could ask permission, because like,

9 remember, that’s another indicator that I didn’t

10 talk to Michael himself.

11 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember

14 complaining to the sheriffs in an interview about

15 Michael Jackson, “Here’s a man that has so much

16 wealth, and yet did not even hire my children a

17 single tutor when they’re supposed to be in school.”

18 Do you remember complaining about that?

19 A. I didn’t complain to him. I was trying to

20 point out to the police that these were the things

21 that now I’m aware of that he really didn’t care

22 about children. He just cared about what he was

23 doing with the children.

24 Q. Do you remember saying that to the sheriffs?

25 A. Like I said, I gave him information.

26 Everything possible that I could possibly do to let

27 them know that the children -- all this time had

28 passed, and they were not educated. 6662



1 Q. Now, how much time are we talking about

2 where you think Michael Jackson should have hired a

3 tutor for your kids?

4 A. No, I don’t think he should have tutored --

5 hired a tutor. I think -- I think he should have

6 just let me and my kids go.

7 Q. When you said to the sheriffs, “Here’s a man

8 who has so much wealth, and yet did not even hire my

9 children a single tutor when they’re supposed to be

10 in school,” what were you referring to?

11 A. That he’s managed to fool the world, and I

12 was one woman inside there. That’s what I was

13 communicating; that what he puts out in the world is

14 not who he really is. Now, because of this criminal

15 case proceedings, now people know who he really is.

16 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

17 THE COURT: Denied.

18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you done any

19 investigation into Michael Jackson’s actions around

20 the world for children?

21 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.

22 THE COURT: It’s not argumentative, but it’s

23 not material.

24 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

25 THE COURT: We’ll take our morning recess.

26 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

27 (Recess taken.)

28 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mesereau, you may 6663



1 proceed.

2 THE BAILIFF: Turn your microphone on,

3 please.

4 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, I’m sorry.

5 Q. Miss Arvizo, when the prosecutor was asking

6 you questions about the Brazil trip, he showed you

7 an itinerary, which is in evidence. Do you remember

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It’s a typed itinerary giving departure and

11 arrival times, correct?

12 A. This is correct.

13 Q. And he showed it to you. Do you remember

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you identified it as something you were

17 aware of, right?

18 A. I came to find out after.

19 Q. Well, the itinerary says you’re leaving Los

20 Angeles for Sao Paulo, Brazil, on March 1st, 2003,

21 right?

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. It says you’re returning from Sao Paulo,

24 Brazil, to Miami on March 6th, 2003, correct?

25 A. Uh-huh.

26 Q. And it says you’re leaving Miami for Los

27 Angeles on March 7th, 2003, correct?

28 A. Uh-huh. 6664



1 Q. That was the itinerary you were shown about

2 the trip, correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever see any plane tickets that were

5 actually purchased for the trip?

6 A. No. Just like my visa and passports.

7 Q. And you never discussed that trip with

8 anyone other than who, Frank and Vinnie?

9 A. This is correct. Frank, Vinnie, and the

10 initial meeting, in that 45-minute meeting where

11 Michael said if things got so bad we would have to

12 leave the country.

13 Q. And you never told Jay Jackson about the

14 Brazil trip?

15 A. I didn’t tell Jay anything until when I

16 permanently left Neverland. That’s when I told Jay.

17 Q. Okay. Did you tell Jay Jackson you had

18 gotten passports?

19 A. I told Jay everything after we came out

20 of -- permanently out of Neverland.

21 Q. Did you tell Jay Jackson you’d gotten a

22 visa?

23 A. I told Jay everything after we had left

24 permanently out of Neverland. That’s the best I can

25 remember.

26 Q. Now, at some point, you must have met with,

27 it appears to be Vinnie, and filled out some of

28 those documents, correct? 6665



1 A. Vinnie never left our side the majority of

2 the time.

3 Q. Excuse me?

4 A. The majority of the time, Vinnie never left

5 our side.

6 Q. And did you sit down with him and fill out

7 the documents so you could apply for a visa?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know where he got the information

10 that went onto those forms?

11 A. They had already studied me. They already

12 had acquired all the information they wanted,

13 needed.

14 Q. Did you ever sign any forms; do you know?

15 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I signed them.

16 Q. And where did you sign those forms?

17 A. I think -- the best I can remember, I think

18 actually there at the facility.

19 Q. Which facility is this?

20 A. Where they were doing the -- where they were

21 doing the -- processing it.

22 Q. Is that a federal facility, to your

23 knowledge?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Did you sit down and do -- work that out

26 with Vinnie? Is that how it worked?

27 A. It was already filled out by Vinnie.

28 Q. And did you and your children sit down with 6666



1 him and sign anything, to your knowledge?

2 A. No, we didn’t sit down.

3 Q. Okay. But you -- what I think you’re

4 saying, and correct me if I’m wrong, you completed

5 those documents at the federal facility, right?

6 A. Incorrect.

7 Q. Is that incorrect?

8 A. That’s incorrect.

9 Q. All right. Where did you just tell the jury

10 you sat down to finish those forms?

11 A. Never sat down. Vinnie had already all that

12 information pre filled out. All I did was sign it.

13 And that’s the best I can remember.

14 Q. Okay. And then you took a trip to the --

15 was it a consulate you went to?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What buildings did you go to to get your

18 passport, visa, and all the documents you needed to

19 take this trip to Brazil?

20 A. Everything was done in steps. First it was

21 the birth certificate. Then the passport. And then

22 the visa.

23 Q. Do you know how many buildings you went to

24 to get all this done?

25 A. Three different buildings.

26 Q. And which -- identify those buildings, if

27 you can remember.

28 A. The birth certificate, the passport and the 6667



1 visa place.

2 Q. And was it always you, Vinnie and your

3 children?

4 A. Yes, plus the people that were following us.

5 They never left our side.

6 Q. Did these people that you have not

7 identified who were following you ever enter the

8 buildings?

9 A. Yes, they did.

10 Q. So they were just mixing in with the crowds

11 in the buildings?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And is that what prevented you from ever

14 telling any officer or employee, “Help us, we’re

15 being kidnapped”?

16 A. Mostly because my parents’ life were now in

17 danger.

18 Q. Now, you told the sheriffs at one point you

19 thought your family might disappear in a hot air

20 balloon from Neverland, correct?

21 A. He’s taking it out of context. I had

22 informed the police that -- that Frank and Vinnie

23 had expressed to me that they had many ways to --

24 and also Ronald and Dieter, remember, and Ronald and

25 Dieter were replaced by Frank and Vinnie, and that

26 they had many various ways to make my children

27 disappear. And I was expressing it, but he’s

28 minimizing it. 6668



1 Q. Did you tell the sheriffs that you thought

2 your family might disappear in a hot air balloon

3 from Neverland?

4 A. Again, he’s minimizing it. I told him what

5 I told the police what Ronald and Dieter, Frank and

6 Vinnie had said; that they had various ways to

7 make -- transporting my children and making them

8 disappear. And what was most terrifying is when it

9 was towards the end, now they had the passport, plus

10 visa.

11 Q. Did you ever mention a disappearance in a

12 hot air balloon? Yes or no.

13 A. I made them aware that they had a variety of

14 ways of getting my children out and that was one of

15 them. This isn’t me. This is what your Frank and

16 Vinnie said, plus your Ronald and Dieter. So I’m

17 just communicating to the police what I was told.

18 Q. And some of them -- somebody mentioned to

19 you disappearance in a hot air balloon, right?

20 A. This is one of a variety of ways.

21 Q. Okay. Now, you said you went to the child

22 support hearing, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Your lawyer, Michael Manning, was there,

25 right?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And the night before, you stayed at Major

28 Jackson’s, correct? 6669



1 A. This is correct.

2 Q. And the night after the hearing you stayed

3 at Major Jackson’s, correct?

4 A. The night of the hearing, yes.

5 Q. And you never complained to anyone at the

6 courthouse about these problems you’ve identified,

7 right?

8 A. This is correct.

9 Q. And I think you told the jury, correct me if

10 I’m wrong, that you never told Jay Jackson about

11 these problems either the night before the support

12 hearing or the night after it, right?

13 A. The night of March 10th.

14 Q. Is that correct?

15 A. This is correct. I told him that night

16 everything.

17 Q. You told him the night of the hearing?

18 A. The March 10th, which was the day before the

19 hearing.

20 Q. Okay.

21 THE COURT: You know, Counsel, I’m going to

22 ask you to refrain from saying, “You told the jury.

23 You told the jury.” Everything that she says here

24 she told the jury.

25 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

26 THE COURT: It’s just an improper reference

27 on your behalf. You ask her for the facts, and

28 they’ll listen to it. 6670



1 MR. MESEREAU: I will do that, Your Honor.

2 Q. You appeared at a hearing in this courthouse

3 on September 17th, 2004. Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes, this is correct.

5 Q. And at that point in time, you were

6 represented by Attorney Larry Feldman, true?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

9 show you the transcript?

10 A. I think what I’m clear on, he was helping us

11 every time something was happening.

12 Q. I asked you, “You are represented currently

13 by Mr. Feldman, correct?” And you said, “Yes,”

14 right?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Now, when you first hired Attorney

17 Dickerman, one of the things you wanted him to do

18 was stop any use of your children’s likeness or

19 photos in any media-type event, correct?

20 A. Yes. This is correct.

21 Q. And did you say earlier that you were

22 involved in a proceeding in England against Bashir

23 that you didn’t know about?

24 A. This is correct. Mr. Dickerman came to find

25 out afterwards.

26 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as nonresponsive

27 beyond, “This is correct.”

28 THE COURT: Sustained. 6671



1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Are you saying that you

2 were a party to a lawsuit in England that you knew

3 nothing about?

4 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Speculative; lack of

5 foundation.

6 THE COURT: Overruled.

7 THE WITNESS: This is correct.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And when did you find out

9 that you were represented by a lawyer in England in

10 a lawsuit against Bashir and his company?

11 A. That Michael was involved in.

12 Q. I’m sorry, excuse me?

13 A. That Michael was involved in. I came to

14 find out this.

15 THE COURT: The question was when. When did

16 you find out?

17 THE WITNESS: Oh. Summer. In about the

18 summer.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And what summer was that?

20 A. 2003.

21 Q. Okay. And did you come to learn that some

22 statements had been attributed to you in some

23 British newspapers about the Bashir documentary?

24 A. Yes, I came -- I came to find out a lot of

25 things through this investigation, what they were

26 doing.

27 Q. Did you ever see a document that was titled

28 “Recommended Statement by Janet Ventura to the UK 6672



1 Sunday Telegraph”?

2 A. I don’t know what you’re talking about. But

3 I know that Ronald and Dieter were heavy at work.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know if they were preparing

5 any statement to be released quoting you?

6 A. I came to find out that Ronald and Dieter

7 were using my children, like Michael was using my

8 children. Everybody was exploiting and using my

9 children. Now I’ve came to find out many things.

10 Q. Okay. And let me rephrase the question.

11 Did you ever find out that anybody had

12 prepared a statement attributed to you to be

13 released to a British newspaper?

14 A. I gave no authority, no interviews, no

15 nothing.

16 THE COURT: Just a minute. He’s asked

17 you --

18 THE WITNESS: Okay.

19 THE COURT: -- two or three times if you know

20 about a statement. That’s the only question he’s

21 asked you. Do you or not?

22 THE WITNESS: No.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you have any

24 communication during the first three months of 2003

25 with an attorney named David LeGrand?

26 A. No, I didn’t.

27 Q. Okay. Did you ever even hear his name

28 during that period? 6673



1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And when did you first learn about an

3 attorney named David LeGrand?

4 A. Okay. Michael had called over the

5 60 Minutes, Ed Bradley. This was all part of the

6 choreography. And Dieter pointed this out, and

7 Ronald over the telephone, that this interview was

8 never going to take place. It was just per

9 Michael’s choreography. And that Ed Bradley was a

10 dishonest man and they were using him for their

11 choreography.

12 And David LeGrand’s purpose -- Michael’s

13 attorney was there as part of their choreography, to

14 let them know that this interview was not going to

15 take place. He was used. That’s what happened.

16 Q. Did you -- I’m sorry, go ahead.

17 A. No, it’s okay.

18 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to include the

19 following words in a recommended statement by you to

20 the Sunday Telegraph newspaper in England --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- “The relationship that Michael has with

23 Gavin, Star and Davellin is a beautiful, loving

24 father, son and daughter. He is their Daddy

25 Michael. And to me and my children, he is our

26 family. He cares for them as a good, loving father.

27 Michael is their only father figure who loves and

28 cares about them. They are not fatherless, because 6674



1 they have their Daddy Michael. My family consists

2 of unconditional love.”

3 Did you ever tell anyone to use those words?

4 MR. ZONEN: May I see the document, please,

5 Your Honor?

6 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.

7 MR. ZONEN: Go ahead.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever give words to

9 that effect to anyone to be used in a statement by

10 you?

11 A. I think I’m recalling something. Remember

12 how they put those two -- that page that had, like,

13 two signatures on there? And I told you that one of

14 my -- them, one of them was my signature, but it had

15 been moved, I can tell, because of where it was.

16 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as

17 nonresponsive to the question of whether or not she

18 used those words.

19 THE COURT: I’ll sustain that objection. But

20 I’m going to ask counsel to simplify the question a

21 little bit. It’s a little cumbersome the way it

22 stands.

23 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. May I approach, Your

24 Honor?

25 THE COURT: Yes.

26 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.

27 THE WITNESS: Here it is. There it is.

28 Uh-huh. 6675



1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to

2 look at that document?

3 A. Yes. Yes, I have.

4 Q. Have you had a chance to read those words?

5 A. This is where they took my signature from.

6 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to look at it?

7 THE COURT: Just a minute. Just look at the

8 words that counsel wants you to look at.

9 Would you show her which paragraph you’re --

10 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, yes.

12 THE COURT: You’re showing her two

13 paragraphs?

14 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. I am.

15 Well, I’m showing her --

16 THE COURT: Which one are you going to ask

17 her the question about?

18 MR. MESEREAU: I’m showing her one sentence

19 in one paragraph and a -- well, it’s really one, but

20 there’s some handwritten stuff that I’m asking her

21 to look at.

22 THE COURT: Well, you need to address with

23 her what you’re trying to show her so that she can

24 answer any questions.

25 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, could we mark this

26 item as an exhibit?

27 THE COURT: No. He was refreshing her memory

28 with it. 6676



1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ms. Arvizo, I’m just

2 asking you if you know where the following words

3 came from.

4 A. Yes, from Dieter.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Dieter had -- they added that second

7 paragraph right now. But all it was was --

8 THE COURT: Just a minute. There’s no

9 question pending.

10 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.

11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay? Do you remember the

12 words I read?

13 A. No, you didn’t read any.

14 Q. Okay. Let me just read them and see if you

15 know where those words came from.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Okay? “The relationship that Michael has

18 with Gavin, Star and Davellin is a beautiful, loving

19 father, son and daughter. He is their Daddy

20 Michael. And to me and my children, he is our

21 family. He cares for them as a good, loving father.

22 Michael is their only father figure, who loves and

23 cares about them. They are not fatherless, because

24 they have their Daddy Michael. My family consists

25 of unconditional love.”

26 Have you heard those words before?

27 A. Yes. This is when -- when Mr. Zonen was

28 doing his -- when he was speaking with me, I had 6677



1 told you that my signature had been moved, because

2 Dieter had a pre -- preprinted paragraph, and then

3 in my -- in my own writing, he had me write

4 something. So, yes, that is right before we left

5 Miami.

6 Q. Well, if you knew about this, did you know

7 about the lawsuit?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So you did know about a statement that was

10 supposed to be attributed to you to appear in a

11 British newspaper, right?

12 A. No. No, no, no.

13 Q. Do you know whose writing that is that I

14 just showed you?

15 A. This is my writing that I’ve already told

16 the jurors.

17 Q. So you wrote those words, correct?

18 A. Yes, per Dieter’s dictation.

19 Q. You wrote those words on a statement to be

20 released Friday, February 7th, 2003, correct?

21 A. No. It wasn’t a statement that was going to

22 be released. What Ronald had done -- Dieter had

23 told me that what Ronald had done did not work to

24 appease the killers. And there’s that phrase, and

25 that’s a quote.

26 Q. And there’s a heart that’s written in

27 between the printing, and that’s a heart that you

28 wrote, correct? 6678



1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then you see “XOXOXO,” meaning “Love,”

3 right?

4 A. Yes. That’s --

5 Q. And that’s your writing, correct?

6 A. Yeah. That’s correct. I used to be that

7 kind of person. Now I’m like this (indicating) hold

8 up. I’m putting one hand over my heart.

9 Q. And your writing is inserted into a printed

10 statement, right?

11 A. Yes. They have -- by the way, he’s shown me

12 the paper. That bottom paragraph was not there.

13 Q. Are you saying that you wrote these words

14 and put a heart and put “XOXOXO” in Florida?

15 A. Yes. This is correct.

16 Q. And does the date February 7th, 2003, sound

17 right to you?

18 A. It must be right.

19 Q. Okay. And the printed portion of the

20 statement says, “I am appalled at the way in which

21 my son has been exploited by Martin Bashir and

22 Granada Television,” correct?

23 A. That’s what Dieter had written.

24 Q. And that’s the way you felt, right?

25 A. No. They had told me that this would --

26 what Ronald had did does not work and this would

27 appease the killers. So I was fooled.

28 Q. Well, are you saying you didn’t know this 6679



1 was to be released in England?

2 A. Exactly.

3 Q. And you’re saying you didn’t know that there

4 was going to be a lawsuit in England in which you,

5 your children, and Mr. Jackson were going to sue

6 Bashir and Granada Television?

7 A. This is correct. Money doesn’t buy

8 happiness. That’s why when I found out through Mr.

9 Dickerman --

10 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

11 THE WITNESS: -- I put a stop to it.

12 THE COURT: Sustained. There’s no question

13 pending.

14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever see an

15 article that appeared in a British newspaper the

16 next day, February 8th, 2003, that quoted you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever talk to anyone who claimed to

19 represent a British newspaper at any time?

20 A. I think -- I think when those two people

21 that had came before we left to Miami that had

22 scared my parents, and they kept saying, “Gavin,

23 cancer; Gavin, cancer.”

24 Q. Ms. Arvizo -- oh, sorry.

25 Miss Arvizo, did you ever tell anyone that

26 you were living in a stable with hay and horses in

27 Bakersfield?

28 A. No. 6680



1 Q. Ever say anything to that effect to anyone?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever hear or learn that you were

4 quoted as saying that?

5 A. Yeah. I came to find out a lot of things.

6 Q. When did you find out that you were quoted

7 as saying that you and your family were so poor you

8 were living in a stable with hay in Bakersfield?

9 A. Just recently. I’ve never lived in

10 Bakersfield.

11 Q. Did you ever learn that Jamie Masada had

12 quoted you as saying that?

13 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as lack of

14 foundation and assumes facts not in evidence that

15 Jamie Masada said she lived in Bakersfield.

16 THE COURT: Sustained; foundation.

17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, the document that you

18 just admitted adding language to, was that presented

19 to you at the hotel in Florida?

20 A. Yes, it was.

21 Q. And you read that before you inserted all

22 these words?

23 A. No, I didn’t. I completely trusted them.

24 Q. Did you know it was supposed to be a

25 recommended statement by you?

26 A. What?

27 Q. Did you know the document you were inserting

28 words into was titled “A Recommended Statement” by 6681



1 you?

2 A. No. I didn’t read it. I completely trusted

3 them.

4 Q. Well, why would you add language to an

5 already existing paragraph if you didn’t know what

6 was in the paragraph?

7 A. Because Dieter dictated that. Everything

8 was -- at that point was like a state of panic.

9 That’s how Ronald and Dieter were behaving.

10 Q. So you just filled out what you were told to

11 fill out and never read a thing, correct?

12 A. Yes, I completely trusted them. I did.

13 Q. Let me get back to what you told the social

14 workers on the 20th, okay? You told them, “My

15 children are never solely alone with Michael

16 Jackson,” true?

17 A. Incorrect.

18 Q. You didn’t tell that to them?

19 A. That’s correct.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. And let me remind you --

22 MR. ZONEN: Objection; no question pending.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You told the social

25 workers, Mrs. Arvizo, “There’s always someone

26 around,” right?

27 A. Incorrect.

28 Q. You told them, “When we go to Neverland, we 6682



1 are always around people,” right?

2 A. Incorrect.

3 Q. You said, “Sometimes I stay in the visitors’

4 quarters, but mostly I am in the main house,” right?

5 A. Incorrect.

6 Q. You said, “Gavin, Star and Davellin have all

7 been in Michael’s room,” right?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. You said, “Yes, Gavin and Star have been

10 with Michael on his bed watching T.V.,” right?

11 A. Incorrect.

12 Q. You told the social workers, “As to the

13 allegations that they share a bed, it is no”?

14 A. What?

15 Q. Did you tell that to the social workers?

16 A. Repeat that, please.

17 Q. The words are, “As to the allegations that

18 they share a bed, it is no.”

19 A. Incorrect. These social workers, all they

20 were interested was not being sued by Michael

21 Jackson.

22 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.

24 THE WITNESS: They didn’t have --

25 THE COURT: Just a minute. There’s no

26 question pending.

27 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay.

28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In that interview with the 6683



1 social workers, you said, “There are always children

2 in Michael’s room,” right?

3 A. Incorrect.

4 Q. You told the social workers, “On or about

5 September 15th, 2002, the day in question, Gavin and

6 Star were in Michael’s room watching T.V. and they

7 made s’mores in a fireplace in Michael’s room”?

8 A. Incorrect.

9 Q. Never said anything like that to the social

10 workers?

11 A. No, no. They didn’t even have no pad or pen

12 with them when they were sitting at the kitchen

13 table.

14 Q. You told the Los Angeles social workers, all

15 three of them, that, “Michael slept on the floor

16 with blankets and a sleeping bag while Gavin and

17 Star slept in the bed,” right?

18 A. Incorrect.

19 Q. You told the social workers, “I’m usually up

20 walking around the house all night long,” right?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You told the social workers, “The room is

23 open and there are no doors to shut,” correct?

24 A. Incorrect.

25 Q. You told the social workers, “It makes me

26 sick that someone would accuse Michael of doing harm

27 to my son and other children when he has never been

28 anything but wonderful.” 6684



1 You said that, didn’t you?

2 A. Incorrect.

3 Q. You told the social workers, “He has been

4 like a father to them,” right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Told the social workers, “My children have

7 never felt uncomfortable in his presence,” right?

8 A. Incorrect.

9 Q. You told the social workers, “Michael has

10 been a blessing,” right?

11 A. Huh-uh.

12 Q. You told the social workers, “I was not

13 aware that the taping with Mr. Bashir would be

14 aired”?

15 A. That I did.

16 Q. You told them, “We did not sign any consent

17 to have my children on this interview,” right?

18 A. This is correct.

19 Q. You further told them, “When my children

20 would go to visit Neverland, there was always

21 somebody present,” right?

22 A. Incorrect.

23 Q. You told them, “On several occasions,

24 Michael’s friend, Chris Tucker, and his family were

25 there,” right?

26 A. I informed them that my children had been

27 there, had had that visit that I’ve already

28 expressed to you over and over. 6685



1 Q. You told the social workers, “In September

2 of 2002, Chris Tucker accompanied Gavin, Star and

3 Davellin in Neverland Ranch,” right?

4 A. That’s the birthday party that I was talking

5 to you about.

6 Q. You told them, “Our last visit to Neverland

7 together was on February 19th, 2003”; is that right?

8 A. Incorrect.

9 Q. You said, “The children are welcome there

10 any time,” right?

11 A. Incorrect.

12 Q. You said, “I do not always go to Neverland

13 with the children,” right?

14 A. This is correct.

15 Q. You told them, “Michael is like a father to

16 my children,” right?

17 A. This is correct.

18 Q. You said, “He’s like family,” correct?

19 A. This is correct.

20 Q. You said, “He gives advice to my children,

21 and that is something they never had with their

22 father,” right?

23 A. That is correct, because of the initial

24 meeting.

25 Q. You said, “He loves them and I trust them

26 with him,” right?

27 A. Yes. What a fool I was.

28 Q. You said, “Michael is so kind and I feel 6686



1 that he is misunderstood,” right?

2 A. “So kind,” but I didn’t say “misunderstood.”

3 Q. You further said, “Michael was an important

4 part of Gavin’s recovery from cancer,” right?

5 A. Incorrect.

6 Q. You said, “Gavin met Jamie Masada at The

7 Laugh Factory about three years ago and made a wish

8 to meet Michael Jackson,” true?

9 A. No. I said Gavin had spoke to Jamie and

10 said he was one of three people that he wanted to

11 meet.

12 Q. Did you tell them you felt that the paternal

13 grandparents had deserted your children?

14 A. Does that mean like David’s family? I’m

15 asking you if that’s what it means. Unless you want

16 to clear -- can you make it clearer, please?

17 Q. All I can ask you is, did you say, “Mother

18 feels that the paternal grandparents have deserted

19 the children”?

20 A. Oh.

21 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as vague.

22 THE COURT: She’s asked for a definition of

23 “paternal.”

24 THE WITNESS: Yes.

25 THE COURT: She didn’t use the word. It’s

26 not suggested she used the word. That’s a

27 conclusion of one of the social workers. So would

28 you help her? 6687



1 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, I will, Your Honor.

2 Q. Yes, I think the way you’ve defined it would

3 be correct.

4 A. Yes. Yes. David’s family didn’t want

5 nothing to do with my kids.

6 Q. Do you remember telling those social workers

7 the media has been taking everything out of context

8 and you’re appalled at the negative attention your

9 children have been receiving?

10 A. No. What I told her is that -- told them

11 that I didn’t understand what was happening.

12 Q. Did you tell them that you’ve been having a

13 difficult time personally and financially?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You told them about your prior involvement

16 with the DCFS, right?

17 A. Oh, yes. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Your children were interviewed on that day,

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you there when they were interviewed?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. And just in summary, you heard them say

24 glowing things about Michael Jackson, right?

25 A. Yes, they did. Yes.

26 Q. And at some point, you learned that this

27 investigation was closed, right?

28 A. Yes, I came to find out. 6688



1 Q. Approximately when did you find out the

2 investigation was closed?

3 A. Well, when Jay and me paged Karen Walker

4 after the Family Court day and we asked her for

5 help. And she said, “It’s out of my hands. It’s

6 out of my hands. We’ve already done the report. Go

7 get legal help. I can’t help you.”

8 When I told her that my son had been given

9 alcohol, that we were being held, that they were

10 taped, gave her all this information, and she said,

11 “It’s out of my hands,” that’s when I found out the

12 report was done.

13 Q. And approximately what date was that?

14 A. That was the 11th, March 11th.

15 Q. And did you call her?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Okay. Did you file a report?

18 A. Well, I spoke to the supervisor. She was

19 the supervisor, Karen Walker.

20 Q. Were you being represented by Attorney

21 William Dickerman at that point?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When did you first start being represented

24 by Attorney William Dickerman?

25 A. After she didn’t help me.

26 Q. He didn’t write to the DCFS at any time, did

27 he?

28 A. No, he didn’t. But Mr. Feldman did. 6689



1 Q. And that was, what, months later? To your

2 knowledge.

3 A. I can’t....

4 Q. Okay. Did you ever read any of the letters

5 Attorney Dickerman was sending to Attorney Mark

6 Geragos?

7 A. Yes, some of them I did.

8 Q. And did you assist Mr. Dickerman in

9 preparing those letters?

10 A. I didn’t assist him. I told him what was

11 happening. He wrote them himself.

12 Q. And was it your belief that Mr. Dickerman

13 was writing Mr. Geragos to complain about injustices

14 that had been done to you and your family?

15 A. What Mr. Dickerman was doing was giving us

16 help, as retrieving our visa, our passports,

17 everything that belonged to us. Where is my

18 storage? Where is my items? Things that belonged

19 to me. Requesting that my children’s clothing be

20 returned.

21 Because when Frank rummaged through the

22 children’s clothing, he took all the new clothing

23 that they had purchased. But when they were doing

24 that, they also took my children’s own clothing and

25 kept all of Gavin’s clothing. And Frank said that

26 if they wanted them, they needed to come back to

27 Neverland.

28 Just different things like that. And for 6690



1 your people to stop following us, and to make you

2 aware that we wanted nothing to do with you anymore.

3 Q. In none of his letters did he ever mention

4 anything about alcohol or child molestation, true?

5 A. Because that was information for these guys

6 right here, for the police.

7 Q. How many months later?

8 A. Because I didn’t want Geragos to know that

9 we were headed towards -- straight to the police.

10 Q. Do you know when you first met with

11 Dickerman?

12 A. I believe -- I think it was the 25th of

13 February.

14 Q. Pardon me?

15 A. I believe I met him, but he was not my

16 attorney, February 25th. Just met him for minutes.

17 Minutes. That’s it.

18 Q. How many meetings did you have with Mr.

19 Dickerman?

20 A. Prior to leaving out of Neverland, once.

21 Q. How about after you left Neverland?

22 A. After I left Neverland? Well, all these --

23 in order to -- I think -- the best I can believe, I

24 think it was two. It was two. That’s the best I

25 can remember.

26 Q. How long did Mr. Dickerman represent you?

27 A. Well, until Mr. Feldman and Mr. Dickerman

28 kicked me to the curb because I didn’t want to tell 6691



1 them all the information that I was telling the

2 police. Because the police told me not to tell them

3 because that would compromise the investigation.

4 And so I didn’t tell them nothing. Mr. Feldman was

5 clueless, and so was Mr. Dickerman.

6 Q. But you weren’t speaking to the police until

7 long after you met Larry Feldman, true?

8 A. Yes, because I wanted to ensure that these

9 people weren’t following us anymore.

10 Q. You didn’t go to the police until months

11 after you first started meeting with Attorney Larry

12 Feldman?

13 A. This is correct. I wanted to just

14 hopefully -- maybe we could have the ability to

15 just -- maybe it would disappear. But the more

16 things were happening, the more I was becoming

17 aware.

18 Q. So you had gone to at least two lawyers

19 about your alleged problems with Mr. Jackson for

20 months before you ever spoke to anyone with the

21 Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department, right, Ms.

22 Arvizo?

23 A. Yes, this is correct.

24 Q. And the first report of any allegation of

25 child molestation to the sheriffs came from Mr.

26 Feldman, did it not?

27 A. Let me see. Well, actually -- actually,

28 Mr. -- my husband, Jay Jackson, tried to reach the 6692



1 police. And then when me and -- me and Jay both

2 contacted the supervisor, Karen Walker, then -- and

3 she said to go get legal help. And also, as things

4 are moving in dates, I’m starting to find out more

5 and more. Now I know why he had a criminal defense

6 attorney, but I didn’t know because there was no

7 investigation underway.

8 Q. There had been an investigation since

9 February that was publicly announced by Santa

10 Barbara, right?

11 A. Well, I wasn’t aware of that.

12 Q. You’re claiming that in the middle of all of

13 these efforts to falsely imprison your family,

14 restrain your family, get you to Brazil, deal with

15 the media, all of a sudden child molestation starts,

16 right?

17 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Argumentative and

18 compound.

19 THE COURT: Sustained on compound.

20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember meeting

21 with someone named “Bowen” from the DCFS?

22 A. No. Is she the one, or he, that leaked all

23 the information from the DCFS to everybody?

24 Q. You remember meeting with three women from

25 the DCFS on the 20th, right?

26 A. Yes, I do.

27 Q. And there was Karen Walker, right?

28 A. Yes. 6693



1 Q. Was there -- Irene Peters one of the ladies?

2 A. That sounds familiar.

3 Q. How about Jacqueline Bowen?

4 A. I don’t -- I don’t remember the -- all I

5 remember is Miss Karen Walker, Jackie and someone

6 named Yvonne. So I don’t know.

7 Q. And you complained to Miss Peters about the

8 Bashir documentary, right?

9 A. No, I didn’t. I told them that there was no

10 consent. That’s all.

11 Q. And you were upset about that, right?

12 A. No, I said there was no consent.

13 Q. Do you remember complaining that you could

14 not get any assistance from Michael Jackson

15 regarding tutoring or home schooling because of all

16 the media attention?

17 A. No. That’s incorrect.

18 Q. Do you remember saying you were having a

19 difficult time schooling your kids because of the

20 media attention?

21 A. That’s incorrect. Because I reenrolled my

22 children back into that school the second we finally

23 got to leave Neverland permanently.

24 Q. Do you remember telling Miss Bowen you were

25 having a hard time contacting Michael Jackson in

26 regards to helping with the tutoring due to the

27 problems the children were having at school?

28 A. That’s incorrect. 6694



1 Q. You never said that to Ms. Bowen of the

2 DCFS?

3 A. No, the meeting was so small with them, that

4 I remember all they were interested was not being

5 sued by Michael Jackson.

6 Q. And how long was that meeting, if you

7 remember?

8 A. Okay. Well, let me see. Here we go.

9 Twenty minutes -- about 20 minutes of Asaf taping

10 it. So about maybe after that, maybe about ten

11 minutes sitting with them. 10, 15 minutes. 15

12 minutes would be generous. So about a total of --

13 altogether maybe 30, 35 minutes, 40 minutes. 40

14 minutes would be a stretch. That would be making it

15 generous.

16 They came in there for one thing only. You

17 know, one thing: Not to be sued by Michael Jackson.

18 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as nonresponsive.

19 THE COURT: The last two sentences are

20 stricken.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember asking

22 Karen Walker if she could talk to Michael’s people

23 to see if they could provide schooling for your

24 kids?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Do you remember asking Miss Walker if she

27 would write a letter on your behalf so your kids

28 could get schooling? 6695



1 A. No.

2 Q. And do you remember telling Ms. Walker

3 you’re not going to take a trip to Brazil?

4 A. Do I?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. I made no mention to them of leaving the

7 country. I made her aware afterwards, when Jay and

8 I paged her, what they were trying to do.

9 Q. Now, at some point, did you sign any

10 documents which suggested your children should be

11 taken out of their school?

12 A. I -- not suggested. It was. I didn’t sign

13 the one for Davellin, which they had done before

14 they had taken the children out. The one for the

15 boys I did sign, because that was afterwards.

16 Q. And the document you signed was designed to

17 give your permission to take your sons out of

18 school, correct?

19 A. This is correct.

20 Q. And what school did you think they were

21 leaving?

22 A. I didn’t know. I just did what they said.

23 That’s it. At that point, the end point, I was

24 doing what they were saying. That’s it.

25 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive to the

26 question.

27 THE COURT: I’ll strike after, “I didn’t

28 know.” 6696



1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During the point in time

2 when you signed that document authorizing your sons

3 to be taken out of school, did you talk to anyone at

4 the school?

5 A. At that time, no. I wasn’t even present.

6 Q. But clearly you knew your children were

7 going to be leaving their school, right?

8 A. This is correct.

9 Q. And what school did you believe Gavin was

10 leaving?

11 A. They were going to be nowhere. We were

12 headed out -- out of the country. This was for

13 their purpose of no one being able to trace my

14 children nor me. We were headed out.

15 Q. What school did you believe Gavin was

16 leaving when you signed that document?

17 A. Well, if it was up to them, they were going

18 to be in no school.

19 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I don’t believe the

20 witness understands the question.

21 MR. MESEREAU: I can try to rephrase it,

22 Your Honor, if it’s unclear.

23 THE COURT: We’ll just have the court

24 reporter read it back. She hasn’t said she doesn’t

25 understand.

26 Read it back.

27 (Record read.)

28 THE WITNESS: Zero. 6697



1 MR. ZONEN: I don’t believe the witness

2 understands the question.

3 THE WITNESS: I don’t understand.

4 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll try to rephrase it.

5 Q. You signed a document --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- authorizing the school to release Gavin

8 as a student, right?

9 A. Gavin and Star. The boys.

10 Q. Which school were you talking about?

11 A. That they were attending?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. They were attending John Burroughs.

14 Q. And you knew that a document was prepared to

15 allow Davellin to leave school, right?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you know that Davellin was going to

18 leave school?

19 A. No. Davellin, I had no knowledge of.

20 Q. So you thought you were going to Brazil, but

21 you only thought Gavin and Star were leaving school?

22 A. No, no. I signed that paper because they

23 had me sign it.

24 Q. To your knowledge, did Gavin and Star

25 actually leave that school?

26 A. Well, they were checked out by Vinnie. I

27 wasn’t there. When I finally got permanently out of

28 Neverland, I reenrolled them immediately into the 6698



1 same school.

2 Q. Well, when you got out of Neverland at that

3 point, you knew you were not going to be involved

4 with Mr. Jackson ever again, correct?

5 A. He gave my son alcohol. Please.

6 Q. Did you know that?

7 A. He gave my son alcohol. That was enough for

8 me. But as time progressed, I found out more and

9 more and more. So no way, no way.

10 Q. Well, as time went on, the story just kept

11 getting bigger and bigger, didn’t it?

12 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Argumentative;

13 asked and answered.

14 THE COURT: It’s argumentative. Sustained.

15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you know that Major

16 Jay Jackson had asked for monetary compensation for

17 your family from Frank?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you know that Jay Jackson had said words

20 to the effect, “You guys are making millions. And

21 this family should get their proper piece of the

22 action”?

23 MR. ZONEN: Objection; misstatement of the

24 evidence.

25 THE COURT: Overruled.

26 You may answer.

27 THE WITNESS: Okay. I’ve come to find out

28 now. But, no, I didn’t then. 6699



1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: So at that point in time,

2 you never discussed with Major Jay Jackson your

3 family’s right to have any compensation if they

4 appeared in a rebuttal video?

5 A. This is correct. There was a new

6 relationship with Jay.

7 Q. And based on the fact that you now are aware

8 of this, do you believe he kept you silent on that

9 issue?

10 A. I don’t understand your question.

11 Q. You’re saying that Jay Jackson never told

12 you that he approached Frank and said, “How much is

13 the family going to get?”

14 A. I’m aware now, because of the

15 investigations, but I didn’t know then. And that’s

16 it.

17 Q. Did you know at any time that Major Jackson

18 was discussing the possibility of selling a story to

19 a British tabloid?

20 A. I think you’re saying it incorrect. I

21 barely found out as I’ve been up here.

22 But the way he’s saying it isn’t the way

23 it’s been said to me by the D.A.’s Office.

24 Q. Did you know at any time that Major Jackson

25 was in discussions with representatives of a British

26 tabloid about the possibility of selling a story?

27 A. No.

28 Q. He never discussed that with you at any 6700



1 time?

2 A. No. Not at all. Till this day he still

3 hasn’t.

4 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Frank

5 about your getting any home in the Hollywood Hills?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Frank

8 about the possibility of a college education for

9 Gavin being paid for by Michael Jackson?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, you believe your signature was forged

12 on some documents making you a party to a lawsuit in

13 Britain, right?

14 A. My signature, per their investigation, is

15 accurate. I signed a blank piece of paper in Miami

16 that Ronald had presented to me. But that signature

17 is mine.

18 Q. Did you ever receive any communications from

19 any lawyer regarding the lawsuit in England?

20 A. After we were permanently out, Mr. Dickerman

21 communicated to me that this was going on. And they

22 even offered me money to stay in it, and I said no.

23 Q. When you left the apartment on Soto Street,

24 did you personally sign any documents that say

25 you’re going to leave?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Did you ever sign any documents involving

28 rent that was owed or not owed? 6701



1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. Did you ever talk to the landlord and say

3 you were leaving?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And was that Yolanda?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. And I -- this is another person that I tried

9 to slip something in --

10 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.

11 THE WITNESS: -- leaving -- that I told her

12 I was leaving the country.

13 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment,

14 please.

15 Stricken.

16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was that Yolanda Lazalde?

17 A. Yes. That’s where I slipped in “I’m leaving

18 the country.” This is another one of the people

19 that I was trying to reach out to.

20 Q. This was another one of your clues that you

21 were leaving?

22 A. Pardon me? Yes. Yes, it was.

23 Q. Now, was Ramon Trujillo also the landlord?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Did you communicate with Ramon

26 Trujillo that you were leaving the apartment?

27 A. No, I had no communication with him.

28 Q. Okay. You told Miss Lazalde that you were 6702



1 leaving the apartment, but gave no reason?

2 A. I did not tell her that. I told her I was

3 leaving the country, but that’s it. Jay Jackson had

4 went and paid my current rent.

5 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone other than Jay

6 Jackson pay rent that you owed?

7 A. No. It was from my funds that he went and

8 did me the favor to go pay the rent, because I

9 couldn’t.

10 Q. My question is, and it may not have been

11 clear, are you aware of anyone other than Jay

12 Jackson paying rent that you owed on that apartment?

13 A. I came to find out, through that, what Mr.

14 Zonen submitted into evidence, that they had done

15 that. And then I also came to find out that Frank

16 and Vinnie had said that this was a way for no one

17 to start searching for where me and the kids might

18 be.

19 Q. Now, at this point in time, you thought that

20 Mr. Jackson, one of the best known people in the

21 world, was trying to just kidnap your whole family,

22 right?

23 MR. ZONEN: Object as argumentative.

24 THE COURT: Sustained.

25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At this point in time, you

26 thought Michael Jackson was arranging to kidnap your

27 entire family, right?

28 MR. ZONEN: Objection to the use of 6703



1 “kidnap”; leading.

2 THE COURT: Overruled.

3 You may answer.

4 THE WITNESS: All I know is what I saw and

5 what I knew. They were making me, my children leave

6 the country. That’s all I knew.

7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You were leaving the

8 country for one week, right?

9 A. No. Till they decided when. And as long as

10 I did what they told me.

11 Q. Do you know someone named Katie Bernard who

12 worked at Neverland?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, are you aware of Katie Bernard driving

15 you to the spa in Los Olivos when you had the wax?

16 A. That was Chris Carter.

17 Q. You don’t recall Katie Bernard doing that?

18 A. No, it was Chris.

19 Q. Are you aware of a Katie Bernard ever

20 dropping you off the next day to have your hair

21 done?

22 A. Never happened.

23 Q. Do you remember telling Katie Bernard how

24 good Michael Jackson had been to your family and

25 what a great guy he was?

26 A. No, I don’t even know Katie Bernard.

27 Q. Okay. Are you aware of Katie Bernard paying

28 for your spa treatment? 6704



1 A. No. And it was a leg wax.

2 Q. Did you ever call Katie Bernard and ask her

3 to arrange for Gavin and Star’s braces to be removed

4 by a dentist?

5 A. No. That was taken care of by Frank and

6 Vinnie.

7 Q. Did you ever tell Katie Bernard that you

8 were being hassled by a Los Angeles dentist for

9 payment and you wanted her to arrange to have your

10 two sons’ braces removed?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you ever tell Katie Bernard you wanted

13 her to return the braces to the L.A. dentist because

14 you couldn’t afford to pay for them?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you remember ever calling Katie Bernard

17 and saying you wanted to go shopping for clothes

18 while you were at Neverland?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever know someone at Neverland named

21 Rafael Camacho?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you recall Rafael Camacho occasionally

24 driving you to places off the ranch property while

25 you were staying at Neverland?

26 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as lack of

27 familiarity by the witness. She says no, she

28 doesn’t know him. 6705



1 THE COURT: Sustained.

2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know whether or not

3 anyone who worked at Neverland ever drove you to

4 various places off the ranch property while you

5 stayed at Neverland?

6 A. No. They even made me miss Ash Wednesday,

7 and I had never missed it before.

8 Q. Who’s “they”?

9 A. Michael’s people.

10 Q. Okay. Did you ask for someone to drive you

11 to church on Ash Wednesday?

12 A. They knew I wanted to go to church. But at

13 that point, that was it.

14 Q. But did you actually ask for someone to

15 drive you to a local church on Ash Wednesday?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Who did you ask?

18 A. I asked Frank and I asked Vinnie, and they

19 said no.

20 Q. Did you ever know someone named Modesto

21 Camarena at Neverland?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever know someone at Neverland named

24 Hector Elenes?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Did you know someone at Neverland named

27 Francisco Fuentes?

28 A. No. 6706



1 Q. Ever complain to Francisco Fuentes that you

2 were struggling financially?

3 A. I don’t even know Francisco Fuentes.

4 MR. ZONEN: I’ll so object as lack of

5 foundation.

6 THE COURT: Lack of foundation; sustained.

7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ever know someone at

8 Neverland named Tammy Gewehr, G-e-w-e-h-r?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Ever know someone at Neverland named Gayle

11 Goforth?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Ever know someone who worked at Neverland

14 named Maria Gomez?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Ever tell Maria Gomez that you thought Frank

17 and Vinnie were separating you from Michael Jackson?

18 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Lack of foundation,

19 that she knows this person.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever tell anyone

22 at Neverland that Frank and Vinnie were separating

23 you from Michael Jackson?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever tell anyone at Neverland that

26 you had financial problems?

27 A. No.

28 Q. Did you ever know someone who worked at 6707



1 Neverland named Curtis Gordon?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever know someone at Neverland named

4 Patty Hankins?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How about Chris Hernandez?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How about Ryan Hester?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Ever know someone who worked at Neverland

11 named Anthony Hudley?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever know someone who worked at

14 Neverland named Charlie Kirchhoff?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Ever know someone who worked at Neverland

17 named Julio Magana?

18 A. No, I don’t. But I remember when I had

19 called to Neverland to make contact with my kids,

20 because I was already out, I asked him his name and

21 he said his name was Julio. So that was it. But

22 that’s the name. It sounds familiar.

23 Q. Do you know someone who worked at Neverland

24 named Christy Mann?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Did you ever know someone named Shane

27 Meredith?

28 A. No. 6708



1 Q. During any of your trips to Neverland, did

2 you ever meet someone named Samuel Moreno?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ever meet someone named Jonathan

5 Bruce Richards?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever meet someone named Manuel

8 Rivera during your trips to Neverland?

9 A. No.

10 Q. During your trips to Neverland, did you ever

11 compliment Michael Jackson?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Ever complain to anyone that you wanted your

14 children on television with Michael Jackson?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, you did argue with Ronald Konitzer at

17 Neverland, right?

18 A. I didn’t argue with him.

19 Q. Did you ever argue with Dieter?

20 A. I didn’t argue with them.

21 Q. Did you ever know someone at Neverland named

22 Brian Salce, S-a-l-c-e?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Ever know an employee at Neverland named

25 James Silva?

26 A. No.

27 Q. While you were visiting Neverland, did you

28 ever meet Javier Velasco? 6709



1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever tell anyone at Neverland that

3 your children loved Michael Jackson like a father?

4 A. No. Once at Neverland, all that stopped.

5 Especially when he’s running around like crazy with

6 my kids.

7 Q. Did you ever complain to Javier Velasco that

8 Michael Jackson had promised to take care of you,

9 and you knew now it wasn’t going to happen?

10 MR. ZONEN: Lack of foundation that she ever

11 knew Javier Velasco.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever complain to

14 anyone at Neverland that Michael Jackson had

15 promised to take care of you, and now you knew it

16 wasn’t going to happen?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Ever meet someone named Angel Vivanco?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you ever know someone named Jason

21 Wolcott at Neverland?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever meet someone named Christian

24 Robinson?

25 A. Yes. He’s the one that did the -- the

26 rebuttal video. He’s the one that had the scripted

27 questions and you could even see him holding it.

28 And he’s the one that also picked up mine and my 6710



1 children’s birth certificate.

2 Q. Now, when you say “scripted questions,” do

3 you mean he had the questions in advance that he was

4 going to ask you on the rebuttal video?

5 A. Yes. That’s my understanding. I may be

6 wrong.

7 Q. And were they the questions you believe he

8 was asking you when you filmed the rebuttal video?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Where did you first meet him?

11 A. Right there.

12 Q. Was that at Hamid’s house?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was that the first time you had ever seen

15 him?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that would have been the -- what, the

18 day of the 20th?

19 A. The day of the 19th, going into the 20th.

20 From 19th, about 11-something, till like a.m. hours

21 of the 20th.

22 Q. And approximately what time do you think you

23 met Christian Robinson?

24 A. Oh, well, when I got there.

25 Q. Now, did someone tell you whose house you

26 were going to?

27 A. Yes. Vinnie.

28 Q. Okay. So you knew it was owned by someone 6711



1 named Hamid, right?

2 A. Yes. And also Frank on the phone.

3 Q. Your understanding was that the purpose of

4 that video was to make Michael Jackson look good,

5 right?

6 A. That’s correct.

7 Q. And you knew for quite a while that efforts

8 were being made to put together a television show in

9 response to the Bashir documentary, right?

10 A. That’s what I came to find out. And I

11 wanted no part of it, and that’s why I left with

12 Jesus, me and my children.

13 Q. Did you ever hear your sons say to Mr.

14 Robinson they wanted to be famous on the T.V. show?

15 A. I don’t think so.

16 Q. When is the last time you saw Christian

17 Robinson?

18 A. It was just that day. That’s it.

19 Q. Okay. Now, do you remember when you

20 testified before the grand jury, you were shown a

21 number of documents involving expenditures that were

22 made for you and your family at one point by Frank

23 and Vinnie?

24 A. Yes, this is correct.

25 Q. And when you were in the grand jury room,

26 you did acknowledge that what was on those documents

27 had been spent for you, Gavin, Star and Davellin,

28 true? 6712



1 A. He’s taking it out of context. Another

2 thing: What applied to me and my kids was pretty

3 accurate, but what applied to Frank and Vinnie,

4 you’re going to have to talk to them about it.

5 Q. When you stayed at Neverland, it was your

6 understanding that any costs involved were paid for

7 by Michael Jackson, true?

8 A. We were on his --

9 MR. ZONEN: Objection; vague. Costs

10 involved with what?

11 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll be happy to rephrase it.

12 Q. When you and your family visited Neverland,

13 you were often transported back and forth by someone

14 that you thought was hired by Mr. Jackson, correct?

15 A. We were not often transferred back and

16 forth.

17 Q. Well, how many visits do you think your

18 family made to Neverland in total?

19 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How did you get to

22 Neverland the first time your family went?

23 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

24 THE COURT: Overruled.

25 THE WITNESS: How did we get there the first

26 time?

27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yes.

28 A. Which time? 6713



1 Q. Let me rephrase the question.

2 Most of the time when you or your family

3 went back and forth to Neverland, the transportation

4 was arranged by someone at Neverland, true?

5 A. Yes. This is correct.

6 Q. And it was your belief that this

7 transportation was paid for by Mr. Jackson, correct?

8 A. Yes, this is correct.

9 Q. And you mentioned someone named Evvy Tavasci

10 whom you knew, right?

11 A. Yes, I never met her. It was only solely

12 per the telephone.

13 Q. You used to call her sometimes, didn’t you?

14 A. No, she called us.

15 Q. Did you ever call her yourself?

16 A. In returning her phone message.

17 Q. Did you ever ask Evvy Tavasci to do anything

18 for you or your family?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. Okay. Ever give her any ideas about ways

21 Michael Jackson could help you or your family?

22 A. Never. I had friends. If I wanted some

23 help I could ask my own friends, and yet I never

24 did.

25 Q. Ever ask Evvy Tavasci to arrange any trip

26 for you or your family?

27 A. Never.

28 Q. To your knowledge, did she ever do anything 6714



1 like that?

2 A. Well, she -- when Michael had contacted us

3 for the Miami stuff.

4 Q. Well, you traveled to Miami on Chris

5 Tucker’s plane, right?

6 A. No, not Chris Tucker’s plane.

7 Q. Did you travel to Miami with Chris Tucker?

8 A. Yes, I did. And that was per Evvy’s

9 arrangement. Evvy and Michael had called Chris and

10 got him pulled into this mess.

11 Q. Did you hear -- did you watch Michael

12 Jackson call Chris?

13 A. No, I didn’t.

14 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.

15 THE COURT: Sustained.

16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever observe Mr.

17 Jackson calling Chris Tucker at any time?

18 A. Well, it’s my understanding in Miami, and

19 Chris had told me there at his house, that Evvy and

20 Michael had contacted him. This is why I became

21 aware.

22 Q. Did you ever request to travel to Florida

23 with Chris Tucker?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever meet anyone at Neverland named

26 Julio Avila?

27 A. I think I already said this.

28 Q. You did not. 6715



1 A. They -- when I had called and I was already

2 out of Neverland, I called wanting to speak to my

3 kids. And the person that I was speaking to, I

4 asked them what their name was, and they said their

5 name was Julio. I think that’s --

6 Q. Did you ever speak with anyone named Alex

7 Byrne?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know who Alex Byrne is?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How about Nancy Catullo?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever speak to Nancy Catullo about

14 setting up a bank account for Gavin?

15 A. No.

16 MR. ZONEN: Objection. No foundation she

17 knows a Nancy Catullo.

18 THE COURT: Sustained.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever seek advice

20 from anyone about setting up a bank account for the

21 benefit of Gavin?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, you spoke to Dr. Alex Farshshian, did

24 you not?

25 A. No, I didn’t.

26 Q. Did you ever meet him?

27 A. Yes, I did. But we weren’t introduced. I

28 just knew because I heard them calling him that. 6716



1 Q. He was the physician who was on the plane --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- on the flight back from Miami, true?

4 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

5 Q. Did you exchange any words with him at all?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Ever meet someone at Neverland named Romero

8 Ruvalcaba Garcia?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How about Gary Hearn?

11 A. Gary Hearn, the extent of my conversations

12 with him was when he would pick up the kids, and

13 when he told us, “Guys, there’s been a change of

14 plans,” and he took us to Chris’s house. So it’s

15 just -- he was a driver.

16 Q. Do you remember him driving your family from

17 Neverland and making various stops to buy things for

18 you and your family?

19 A. No.

20 Q. That never happened?

21 A. That never happened.

22 Q. Ever meet someone related to Mr. Jackson

23 named Rio?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever meet someone related to Mr.

26 Jackson named Simone?

27 A. No. But I did see other children there.

28 Q. Do you know Arlene Kennedy? 6717



1 A. Yes, I know Miss Kennedy.

2 Q. And who is she?

3 A. Miss Kennedy is someone that I got to meet.

4 She’s the owner of the tap dance school where my

5 children had attended tap dances. I think my

6 children only attended there for less than -- I’m

7 being generous if I say five months. It was only

8 months.

9 But my relationship with Miss Kennedy and

10 Mr. Kennedy continued. She’d come and pick me up

11 and take me to like, for example, a Christian

12 crusade to the Anaheim Convention Center. She’d

13 come and pick me up and take me to a variety of

14 churches in South Central.

15 We’d pray a lot on the phone. She’d

16 continuously come and pray for Gavin in the church.

17 I mean, at -- at the hospital. And then we’d

18 request churches to pray for Gavin.

19 She took a trip to another country and she

20 inscribed Gavin’s name on somewhere where they could

21 pray continuously. It’s a place where they pray 24

22 hours. So my relationship with Miss Kennedy was

23 mostly that of spiritual.

24 Q. And she ran the dance school your children

25 attended, right?

26 A. Yes, for less -- my children -- for about

27 five months, that’s all. And that’s the best I can

28 recall. No more than five months. But my 6718



1 relationship with Miss Kennedy went on for years,

2 and Mr. Kennedy.

3 Q. And your children did attend the school on a

4 scholarship --

5 A. No.

6 Q. -- because they didn’t have funds, right?

7 A. No.

8 Q. That never happened?

9 A. That never happened.

10 Q. Okay. Now, you called her from Neverland

11 Ranch, did you not?

12 A. Yes, I did. This was another person that I

13 tried to reach.

14 Q. You called her after the airing of the

15 Bashir video and said you were at the ranch because

16 the press was causing problems, right?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You told Miss Kennedy that you wanted to get

19 out of the country, correct?

20 A. No. She would know, too, that there’s no

21 way, because she knows the extent of my son’s

22 medical needs. He needs medical care. I know he

23 looks, on the surface, healthy, but he does have

24 some serious medical issues.

25 Q. You complained to Miss Kennedy that people

26 around Michael Jackson keep everything from him and

27 he doesn’t have a clue about anything, correct?

28 A. No. 6719



1 Q. Never said that?

2 A. Never said that.

3 Q. Did you ever tell Miss Kennedy that the

4 people around Michael Jackson keep him in the dark?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you recall Miss Kennedy telling you, “Go

7 to Michael Jackson directly with these concerns”?

8 A. No.

9 Q. How many times do you think you called

10 Arlene Kennedy from Neverland Ranch?

11 A. I think maybe once.

12 Q. Are you sure about that?

13 A. Yeah. I think it was only once.

14 Q. Only one time?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. You called her many times and never

17 indicated your calls are being monitored, right?

18 A. No, I called -- I think I called her once.

19 And when I knew that they were listening, I wouldn’t

20 be able to say that, when I felt -- but, yes, I did

21 tell everybody possible when I could.

22 Q. Now --

23 A. Because I knew I was being monitored. I

24 knew it.

25 Q. I understand.

26 You mentioned that you knew Carol Lamir,

27 right?

28 A. Yes. That’s David’s girlfriend and part of 6720



1 his damage control team in the past. She had to do

2 something to reinstate herself, and this is it.

3 Q. When did you first meet Carol Lamir?

4 A. At the dance school.

5 Q. That was years before you ever met Mr.

6 Jackson, wasn’t it?

7 A. Yes, this is correct. But she made it very

8 aware.

9 Q. For how many years did you know Carol Lamir

10 before you ever met Michael Jackson?

11 A. Let me see. I think my children attended

12 tap there in -- my best recollection is maybe three

13 years.

14 Q. And at some point, your understanding is

15 that Carol Lamir arranged for Mr. Jackson to speak

16 to Gavin, right?

17 A. My understanding is David has -- had and

18 still has a very close relationship with Carol

19 Lamir, extremely close. David would even go cook at

20 her house. David would even go spend nights over

21 there.

22 And my understanding is that David was the

23 one that communicated to me that Carol Lamir felt

24 that she was the one that introduced Michael and

25 Gavin, the family. And Jamie, I heard it from

26 Jamie, that he felt it.

27 So I never have known. It was either one of

28 two people. That’s how I feel till this day. 6721



1 Q. Was it your understanding that Carol Lamir

2 arranged for Mr. Jackson to provide your family with

3 an automobile so that you could get to the hospital?

4 A. I wasn’t involved with that. All I know is

5 that David and Carol Lamir were, and still are, very

6 close.

7 Q. Do you know who first informed Mr. Jackson

8 that you wanted an automobile so you could travel

9 back and forth to the hospital?

10 A. I didn’t need an automobile. I didn’t ask

11 for an automobile. David and Carol Lamir were, and

12 still are, very close.

13 Q. When did you first learn that Mr. Jackson

14 had provided an automobile so you could travel back

15 and forth to the hospital?

16 A. When it was delivered to my mom’s house. I

17 knew it came from him.

18 Q. Did you ever inquire as to why it was being

19 delivered?

20 A. No, I didn’t.

21 Q. To your knowledge, did Miss Lamir ever refer

22 you to a woman named Nancy Catullo?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And you’ve indicated you knew Davellin was

25 staying at her house, right?

26 A. Yes. Until I found out that all Carol

27 wanted my daughter was to clean her house. That’s

28 it. A little housekeeper. 6722



1 THE COURT: Let’s take our break.

2 (Recess taken.)

3 THE COURT: Counsel?

4 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.

5 Your Honor, the last document I showed the

6 witness we’ve marked as Exhibit No. 5008. And I

7 would move that it be admitted into evidence.

8 MR. ZONEN: Which document is that, Your

9 Honor?

10 THE COURT: That’s the document you showed

11 her earlier to refresh her recollection?

12 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: All right. That’s admitted.

14 MR. ZONEN: No objection.

15 THE COURT: You moved it in earlier, Counsel,

16 yourself.

17 MR. ZONEN: Yes, I understand.

18 MR. MESEREAU: I’m sorry, Your Honor, was

19 that admitted?

20 THE COURT: Yes, it was.

21 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, it was. Oh, thank you.

22 I’m sorry.

23 Q. Ms. Arvizo, when did you last see Carol

24 Lamir?

25 A. I last saw Carol Lamir when she accompanied

26 David to David’s criminal domestic violence

27 proceeding. That’s when I last saw her. And they

28 were holding hands. 6723



1 Q. Did you ever tell her that David did not

2 provide for the family and you had no food?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ever tell her that you had no

5 insurance and needed money to pay Gavin’s medical

6 bills?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Ever tell Louise Palanker that David had

9 threatened to kill you?

10 A. I don’t think so, but that is something that

11 David always did.

12 Q. Pardon me?

13 A. That’s something that, you know, was

14 customary, part of his own violence.

15 Q. He would always threaten to kill?

16 A. But I don’t think I told Wheezy that.

17 Q. Did you ever tell anyone that David often

18 threatened to kill members of your family?

19 A. I don’t think so.

20 Q. Ever tell the police that?

21 A. I don’t think so. I told them what David

22 would tell me, and that was about his brother Ray,

23 but Ray had never done that, or said that to me.

24 Q. Did you ever meet someone named Richard

25 Ramey?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Do you know Marian Arvizo?

28 A. Yeah, that’s the one that’s friends to the 6724



1 editor of the Mid Valley News. And David, that’s --

2 they’re -- David and Marian are in cahoots about

3 many things. Such as like the --

4 Q. I’m sorry.

5 A. I came to find out -- a lot of things.

6 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as exceeding

7 the scope of the question.

8 THE COURT: Nonresponsive do you mean?

9 MR. ZONEN: Yes.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How long have you known

12 Marian Arvizo?

13 A. The last time I seen Marian Arvizo was when

14 she also went to David’s criminal domestic violence

15 proceeding. And prior to that, I hadn’t seen Marian

16 since, let me see, maybe when my children -- when my

17 daughter was, I think, two years of age.

18 Q. Do you recall Marian Arvizo organizing some

19 blood drives for Gavin?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever hear anything about that

22 happening?

23 A. No. All I know is that she’s -- she’s the

24 editor’s friend.

25 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

26 THE COURT: Sustained.

27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever meet someone

28 named Mrs. Marie Triggs? 6725



1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you aware of Mrs. Marie Triggs ever

3 trying to organize blood drives for Gavin?

4 MR. ZONEN: Objection. No foundation that

5 she knows the person.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Regardless of whether you

8 know the person, did you ever learn that Marie --

9 someone named Marie Triggs had helped organize some

10 blood drives for Gavin?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you remember ever complaining to Marian

13 Arvizo that you didn’t want her to arrange blood

14 drives for Gavin?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Ever tell Marian Arvizo, “I don’t need your

17 blood. What I need is money”?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. When did you last see Marian Arvizo?

20 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

21 THE COURT: Sustained.

22 THE WITNESS: I already said.

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ever know of a blood drive

24 being held in Claremont, California, for Gavin?

25 A. No.

26 Q. How about a blood drive being arranged

27 through Von’s warehouse where David used to work?

28 A. No. 6726



1 Q. Do you know -- I think I may have asked you.

2 I’m not sure whether I asked this question

3 or not, Your Honor.

4 Do you know someone named Bruce Richards?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, while you were at Hamid’s home, and

7 before you began the filming of the rebuttal video,

8 do you recall making some phone calls?

9 A. No. I made no phone calls.

10 Q. Do you recall ever being on the phone with

11 anybody before the video was shot?

12 A. No. The only -- when Brad Miller had dialed

13 the phone and Miss -- Vicki was on there.

14 Q. Was that at Hamid’s house?

15 A. This was at Hamid’s house.

16 Q. Did you only talk to Vicki Podberesky that

17 one time?

18 A. This is the one time.

19 Q. Okay. Do you know Violet Silva?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, which employees at Neverland, other

22 than Jesus and Chris, do you recall meeting?

23 A. That’s it. I gave the police every possible

24 information that I could, and that’s it.

25 Q. I want to just clear something up that I

26 said on Friday. The J.C. Penney settlement --

27 excuse me. Let me rephrase it. That agreement to

28 settle was approximately September of 2001, right? 6727



1 A. I don’t think so.

2 Q. When do you think you settled that case?

3 A. When -- I think it was -- I know it was

4 after David was arrested.

5 Q. Actually, he was arrested five days after

6 the agreement was signed, right?

7 A. Okay. No, David was arrested. Then he was

8 out on bail. And so -- no, it had to be after he

9 was arrested. That’s the best I can remember.

10 Q. The agreement was signed September 24th,

11 2001, right?

12 A. Okay. I may not understand what his -- the

13 legal words is. I’m talking about the end result,

14 the end result when the J.C. Penney’s attorneys and

15 Tower Records attorneys stood with my civil

16 attorney, and that’s what I’m talking about. And to

17 my understanding, that’s when the judge approved it.

18 I don’t know. So that’s what I’m talking about. Me

19 and you may be talking about something different.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Because I know there was different

22 proceedings prior to that.

23 Q. But around that time, David was arrested,

24 correct?

25 A. Yeah, because, you know, he did what he did.

26 Q. And a couple of weeks after the agreement

27 was signed, you filed for divorce against David,

28 right? 6728



1 A. I -- when David showed up to the criminal

2 court proceedings on the first day --

3 MR. ZONEN: Objection; nonresponsive.

4 THE WITNESS: I already answered that so

5 many times.

6 THE COURT: Just a moment, please.

7 Sustained. Do you want the question read

8 back, Counsel?

9 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor.

10 (Record read.)

11 THE WITNESS: I don’t know how to answer

12 that. All I know is that David was arrested. And

13 the first day that he showed up where I was at the

14 criminal proceedings, that’s when he was handed

15 my -- the filed divorce file. And I’ve never gone

16 back with him ever again, so it was serious. That

17 was it. That was enough.

18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: After he was arrested, you

19 were in a legal dispute with him as to how the

20 settlement money would be divided, correct?

21 A. Incorrect.

22 Q. Did you go to any type of mediation

23 procedure to settle how much each member was going

24 to get of the 152,000?

25 A. No. That’s incorrect.

26 Q. You don’t recall any discussion among

27 lawyers about that, right?

28 A. That’s incorrect. 6729



1 Q. Okay. When did you and David agree how much

2 each party was going to get?

3 A. There was no -- there was no back and forth

4 with that. They -- the civil law firm, they decided

5 that. But I know -- but I am aware of this, though:

6 David’s -- Mr. Halpern, his wife --

7 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as

8 nonresponsive.

9 THE WITNESS: -- was demanding --

10 THE COURT: Just a moment. There’s no

11 question.

12 Go ahead.

13 THE WITNESS: Okay.

14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. David got

15 approximately $5,000 from that settlement, correct?

16 A. That’s correct.

17 Q. Okay. I’d like to ask you about purchases

18 made on your behalf by anyone associated with

19 Michael Jackson, okay? Do you recall a dinner at

20 Outback Steakhouse on February 21st, 2003?

21 A. No. That didn’t happen. I know where I was

22 February 21st.

23 Q. You never were there with Frank or Vinnie,

24 correct?

25 A. This is correct.

26 Q. Okay.

27 A. As a matter of fact, on the surveillance

28 video, you can see your guy following us. 6730



1 Q. Well, you were being investigated, weren’t

2 you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. You’re not aware of Mr. Geragos ever

5 hiring people to investigate you?

6 MR. ZONEN: Objection; lack of foundation.

7 THE COURT: Sustained.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: So you never went to

9 Outback Steakhouse, right?

10 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall going to

13 Robinson’s-May on February 21st, 2003?

14 A. No. That’s incorrect. I know where I was

15 February 21st.

16 Q. Did you ever go into Robinson’s-May in

17 Thousand Oaks on February 21st, 2003?

18 A. No. I remember the day. I think it was the

19 26th.

20 Q. You went to Robinson’s-May?

21 A. I think it was the 26th. The same day that

22 my children had gone.

23 Q. And do you know who paid that bill?

24 A. That was Vinnie. I think that was Vinnie.

25 Q. And do you remember what was purchased?

26 A. No, I can’t remember. I think it was --

27 I think it was a couple of outfits. I think so.

28 Q. For who? 6731



1 A. This was for me.

2 Q. And you were --

3 A. I think so.

4 Q. Do you recall the bill being approximately

5 $92.24?

6 A. No, I think it was more like -- I don’t

7 know. It was around that price range, though.

8 Q. And do you recall what clothes you bought?

9 A. No, I can’t remember, because they took them

10 away. They rummaged through the things when I had

11 finally got out. And not only did they take the

12 things that they had purchased, but they also took

13 some of our items back. And that’s why Mr.

14 Dickerman’s letter, it states “Children’s clothing.”

15 I didn’t care about mine.

16 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

17 show you the receipt --

18 A. It don’t matter.

19 Q. -- as far as the clothes you bought?

20 A. I’ve already seen it.

21 Q. Do you know what clothes you purchased?

22 A. And I’m acknowledging that on the same day

23 that my children’s things were purchased, the same

24 items were.

25 Q. Okay. Do you know what clothes you bought?

26 A. No, I don’t remember.

27 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look

28 at the receipt? 6732



1 A. Sure. If you have the receipt --

2 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

3 THE WITNESS: -- of the 26th.

4 MR. ZONEN: May I see the receipt, please?

5 This is not the 26th. Your Honor, I believe

6 the witness has requested the receipt from the 26th.

7 THE WITNESS: That’s right.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You don’t want to see one

9 from the 21st?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You deny being in Robinson’s-May on the

12 21st, right?

13 A. This is correct. I know where I was the

14 21st.

15 Q. Do you recall going to Lisa’s Beauty Supply

16 on the 21st?

17 A. That’s incorrect.

18 Q. Have you ever been to that store?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Never got hair products there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How about a store called Pacific Sunwear,

23 did you ever go there?

24 A. I don’t think so. I think it was just

25 the -- I think it was -- the best I can remember, it

26 was in an outlet area. It was a Jockey store, and I

27 think it was a Levi store. And then the luggages.

28 Q. And you think you went -- 6733



1 A. On that same day, Robinson’s-May. I

2 think -- that’s the best I can remember.

3 Q. Do you think you went to Robinson’s-May on

4 the 25th?

5 A. No. No, it was the same day, the 26th.

6 Q. Did you go to Robinson’s-May on the 25th?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you go to Anchor Blue on the 25th?

9 A. No.

10 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Jackson ever pay

11 for clothing for you at Anchor Blue?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How about at Robinson’s-May?

14 A. On the 26th, yes. Which they kept.

15 Q. And you never went to Pacific Sunwear on the

16 26th of February, right, 2003?

17 A. No. The best I can remember is the Levi

18 outlet store, the Jockey outlet store, and then that

19 luggages. That’s the best I can remember.

20 Q. Do you recall --

21 A. And Robinson’s-May.

22 Q. I’m sorry. Are you finished?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall purchasing luggage on February

25 26th, 2003?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And what luggage do you recall purchasing?

28 A. They were -- they were black. 6734



1 Q. Do you recall asking for a particular kind

2 of luggage?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. And the cost was approximately

5 $127.40, right?

6 A. I think so. And also -- Vinnie had

7 purchased also for Frank and Vinnie.

8 Q. For themselves?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. In that luggage store.

12 Q. For that trip to Brazil?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall going to Banana Republic on

15 February 26th, 2003?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Never went there?

18 A. Never went there.

19 Q. Do you recall going to the Gap outlet in

20 Camarillo on February 26th, 2003?

21 A. No. The best I can remember, it was the

22 Levi outlet, the Jockey, the luggage, and the

23 Robinson’s-May. That’s the best I can remember.

24 Q. Do you recall charging up $436.77 at the

25 Levi outlet on February 26th?

26 A. That sounds about correct.

27 Q. Do you recall eating at the Woodland Hills

28 Black Angus on February 26th? 6735



1 A. I think that -- I think that’s correct.

2 Q. And who did you eat there with?

3 A. It was Frank, Vinnie, the three kids,

4 myself, and they were filming that for Michael’s

5 positive PR.

6 Q. And the bill was $175.34, approximately,

7 right?

8 A. I never saw the bill. I never saw the bill.

9 Q. All right. Do you recall shopping at The

10 Foot Locker on February 26th, 2003?

11 A. No. That’s incorrect.

12 Q. Didn’t go there?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Didn’t get any shoes for your son there?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. Do you recall going to Abercrombie &

17 Fitch on February 26th, 2003?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Didn’t go there at all, right?

20 A. That’s correct.

21 Q. Okay. And you do recall Robinson’s-May in

22 Canoga Park on February 26th, right?

23 A. I don’t know what city it was, but it

24 definitely was February 26th. Some things just --

25 are just stuck in there.

26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just

27 show you the receipt?

28 A. Like I said, if it happened February 26th, 6736



1 then it did happen.

2 Q. Okay. Do you know what clothes you bought

3 there on that day?

4 A. No, I can’t remember.

5 MR. ZONEN: On what day? Objection; vague.

6 MR. MESEREAU: February 26th, 2003.

7 MR. ZONEN: Where is this?

8 MR. MESEREAU: Robinson’s-May in Canoga

9 Park.

10 Q. Do you know what clothes you bought there?

11 A. No, I can’t remember. But besides that,

12 Frank had taken all the clothes that they had

13 purchased. And when he was rummaging through our

14 bags, he also took some of my children’s clothing

15 that belonged to them that they did not purchase.

16 Q. Were you shopping with Frank or Vinnie on

17 February 27th, 2003?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Didn’t go to Robinson’s-May on February

20 27th?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Didn’t go to Rite-Aid?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Didn’t go to Anchor Blue, right?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Okay. Do you recall going to Hsong’s Barber

27 Shop on February 28th?

28 A. No. 6737



1 Q. Do you recall going to Adidas on February

2 27th of 2003?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you recall going to Old Navy on

5 February 27, 2003?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, do you recall going to Robinson’s-May

8 on February 27th, 2003?

9 A. February 26th. It’s burned inside my

10 memory.

11 Q. And where was that Robinson’s-May located?

12 A. Right next to -- right next to the hotel

13 where we were at.

14 Q. Was that across the street?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you recall ever going to Canoga Park

17 during this period of time?

18 A. I don’t know what the city was. I just know

19 that it was near there. That’s all.

20 Q. Do you recall going to Anchor Blue on March

21 1st?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How about Robinson’s-May on March 2nd for

24 cosmetics?

25 A. No.

26 Q. How about Lovely Nails on March 10th?

27 A. March 10th is the nails -- the nail shop.

28 Q. And that was for a manicure and a pedicure, 6738



1 correct?

2 A. No.

3 Q. It was a $115 bill paid by Mr. Jackson,

4 true?

5 MR. ZONEN: Objection; lack of foundation.

6 THE WITNESS: No.

7 THE COURT: Sustained.

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall -- let me

9 rephrase this.

10 Do you recall sending any employees to do

11 shopping for you while you were there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So that never happened?

14 A. Never happened.

15 Q. Okay. Where was Lovely Nails located?

16 A. Right by Jay’s work.

17 Q. And do you know who paid that bill?

18 A. Vinnie did.

19 Q. Do you recall Gavin getting a haircut during

20 that period of time?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you recall ever asking Frank or Vinnie to

23 buy cosmetics for you?

24 A. No, that didn’t happen.

25 Q. Never happened?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Did you ever go to any store where you could

28 pick out cosmetics that they would purchase? 6739



1 A. No.

2 Q. What restaurants do you recall eating at

3 with Frank or Vinnie?

4 A. The Black Angus one. And it was one meal,

5 while we were in the hotel. It was one meal per

6 day. And they were filming the whole thing. So

7 Black Angus is one of them. But that’s the best I

8 can remember. And we had to stay in the hotel.

9 Q. So you’re saying you were limited to one

10 meal a day while you were filming?

11 A. Yes. This is correct.

12 Q. And where were you filming?

13 A. I wasn’t filming. Your people were filming.

14 And when we’d go eat. At Black Angus was one of

15 them.

16 Q. Let me get this straight. You’re staying at

17 the hotel, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you’re saying you’re limited to one meal

20 a day, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. While you’re being filmed; is that correct?

23 A. No, not while we were being filmed. They

24 would film the event. They would film the dinner

25 for Michael’s positive PR.

26 Q. So a dinner was filmed at Outback

27 Steakhouse?

28 A. If in that time period, it falls within that 6740



1 time period, it did happen. But the best I can

2 remember is only -- what he just said, is Black

3 Angus. I do remember that.

4 Q. And who do you remember eating at Black

5 Angus with?

6 A. Frank, Vinnie, my three children, me, yes.

7 Q. Do you recall around November 9th, 2001,

8 buying an automobile?

9 A. November 9th?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Of what year?

12 Q. 2001.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you buy an automobile around that period

15 of time?

16 A. No, I didn’t.

17 Q. Okay. Were you taking the bus all the time

18 then?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you -- again, just for the record, you

21 moved in with Jay Jackson approximately December of

22 2002; is that right?

23 A. That’s incorrect. I moved when they took my

24 place away.

25 Q. Okay.

26 A. And that was in March of 2003.

27 Q. Were you spending time at Jay Jackson’s home

28 starting December of 2002? 6741



1 A. I visited Jay throughout -- since I first

2 met him. He was my -- it was a new relationship.

3 I really liked being with him, me and the kids.

4 Q. And did you start spending a good portion of

5 the week there approximately December of 2002?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When did you start spending days at Jay

8 Jackson’s home?

9 A. Again, this is like three years ago now

10 probably. Well, when you guys took my place away.

11 I had nowhere else to go.

12 Q. Were you spending most of the week at Jay

13 Jackson’s home before the Soto apartment was

14 vacated? Yes or no.

15 A. I would ride the bus with my children on the

16 metro rail. I’d take them to school. And then I’d

17 go and -- to Jay’s apartment and make myself

18 serviceable with cleaning his house, do just

19 something, and then go pick up the kids. And he

20 would let me know how long he was going to be at

21 work. If he was going to stay longer, then I’d just

22 go home.

23 Q. Do you know approximately -- let me rephrase

24 that.

25 You first met Psychologist Stanley Katz in

26 May of 2003, true?

27 A. I think so. I think so.

28 Q. You met him through Larry Feldman, right? 6742



1 A. Yes. This is correct.

2 Q. And you told the jury that at some point you

3 first learned about any molestation through the

4 Santa Barbara police, right?

5 A. I already felt and were aware that things

6 were a mess. But it was confirmed when the police

7 and the D.A.’s Office made me aware. Mr. Robel had

8 explained to me that Gavin had entrusted something

9 with him --

10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Move to strike;

11 nonresponsive.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You claim you first

14 learned about any alleged molestation in September

15 of 2003, correct?

16 A. I don’t understand what he’s saying, but I

17 was becoming aware of things through Gavin and Star,

18 little by little by little.

19 Q. You claim that you learned about any alleged

20 molestation in September of 2003 from Prosecutor

21 Sneddon, Sheriff Klapakis and Sheriff Robel, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. MESEREAU: I have no further questions.

24

25 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

26 BY MR. ZONEN:

27 Q. Ms. Arvizo, good afternoon.

28 A. Good afternoon. 6743



1 Q. Mr. Mesereau had asked you about a Mary

2 Holzer. Who is Mary Holzer?

3 A. Mary Holzer, she is the last -- what I know,

4 she’s the office manager of the Rothstein civil law

5 firm, and she’s a humongous Michael Jackson fan.

6 Q. What do you mean by that?

7 A. Well, when she was taking me back and forth

8 to the various visits, because I didn’t have a car,

9 she was continuously asking, requesting, begging to

10 meet Michael Jackson.

11 Q. Did you ever tell Miss Holzer that the

12 injuries that you sustained after the J.C. Penney’s

13 incident were given to you by your husband?

14 A. Never.

15 Q. Is it the case that the injuries that you

16 sustained in the J.C. Penney’s case were received by

17 you by your husband?

18 A. If the -- on the day the J. --

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Say it again.

21 Q. Is it the case that the injuries that you

22 suffered during -- that the injuries that you had

23 were received by your husband and not by J.C.

24 Penney’s?

25 A. I kind of don’t understand.

26 Q. Let me ask that question again.

27 A. Okay.

28 Q. Were you injured during the J.C. Penney’s 6744



1 arrest?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, what happened in that arrest?

4 A. The J.C. Penney’s and Tower Records injured

5 me and both my boys.

6 Q. How did that happen?

7 A. Well, they clobbered me.

8 Q. How did you happen to be there?

9 A. Well, because I was -- I had already gotten

10 a loss prevention agent job for Oshman Sporting

11 Goods.

12 Q. Where was Oshman Sporting Goods?

13 A. It was inside the mall.

14 Q. Were you at Oshman Sporting Goods?

15 A. Yes, I was.

16 Q. Was your husband with you?

17 A. No, he wasn’t.

18 Q. Were either of your two children with you?

19 A. No, they weren’t.

20 Q. Where did they go?

21 A. They went with David.

22 Q. And Mr. Mesereau had asked you if, in fact,

23 you had learned your son Gavin had walked out of the

24 store with items. How old was your son Gavin at

25 that time?

26 A. I think my best -- they were in the summer

27 of first grade, and I think -- I think both -- I

28 think either -- I think it was six and seven. Six 6745



1 and seven, I think.

2 Q. This was before Gavin was ill with cancer;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Yes, way before Gavin was ill.

5 Q. At some point, did you learn that he had

6 walked out of the store with something?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was the item he walked out with?

9 A. Two school uniforms and two school uniform

10 pants.

11 Q. Was David Arvizo with him at that time?

12 A. Yes, he was.

13 Q. All right. Now, what was the first thing

14 you saw or learned that day?

15 A. Well, the first thing I saw was David

16 getting hit by a male and a female. And this is --

17 I don’t know if you know malls. Like --

18 Q. Just tell us what you saw.

19 A. -- way far.

20 Q. Just tell us what you saw. What did you

21 see?

22 A. I walked out and I saw that David was

23 getting hit by a male and a female.

24 Q. Did you know who they were?

25 A. No, I didn’t know.

26 Q. Were they wearing uniforms?

27 A. No, they weren’t.

28 Q. Did you have any reason to believe that they 6746



1 were security?

2 A. No, I didn’t.

3 Q. What did you do?

4 A. Well, I figured, you know, they might

5 think -- I might be able to startle them with my two

6 phrases, and those two phrases are also burned here.

7 I told them, “What are you doing? What’s going on?”

8 Because I figured by saying that, that would spook

9 them and they would run.

10 Q. What happened?

11 A. Instead they turned around and just

12 clobbered me.

13 Q. Were you arrested by them?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. Were you injured by them?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. Hold on just one second.

18 Where were you injured and how were you

19 injured?

20 A. Okay. The best I can remember is they broke

21 my hand, my left hand. They made some -- like a

22 little bump here, pop out, from my wrist. They, you

23 know, hit -- punched all over my body. Let’s see.

24 They did significant muscle damage on my back. Hit

25 my face. All over my body. That’s the best I can

26 remember.

27 Q. Where did you have bruises on you?

28 A. My legs. My arms. A little bit on my face. 6747



1 But that’s -- that’s the best I can remember.

2 Q. Were you arrested that day?

3 A. Yes, I was arrested.

4 Q. Were you taken to jail?

5 A. I was taken to jail.

6 Q. Was David Arvizo taken to jail?

7 A. Yes. David was taken to jail.

8 Q. Were you charged with any criminal offense?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What were you charged with?

11 A. I was charged with burglary, assault and

12 battery, and petty theft.

13 Q. Did you ever actually go inside J.C.

14 Penney’s?

15 A. I never even went inside that store.

16 Q. Were those charges ultimately dismissed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was the lawsuit with J.C. Penney filed

19 before or after the charges were dismissed?

20 A. It was after.

21 Q. Did you have photographs that were taken of

22 your injuries?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After you were released from jail, what did

25 you do?

26 A. After I was released from jail, the best I

27 can remember is I remember the -- the jail person

28 giving me the car keys, so I walked over to the mall 6748



1 parking lot. The best I can remember is I picked up

2 the car. My children at this point had already been

3 taken by my parents, because the police officer did

4 not want to take custody of my children. So they

5 waited for my parents to arrive before I even went

6 to the jail. Right there in the parking lot, the

7 police handed over my two boys.

8 And -- but after I came out of jail, and

9 then I -- I don’t know whether this came first or

10 after, I went to go do a drug test, because that’s

11 what I went to go pick up at the -- at Oshman’s. I

12 had already been given the job. I just had to do --

13 it was -- they said it was a mere technicality. All

14 I had to do was submit to an alcohol -- I mean, what

15 they -- those drug tests. And --

16 Q. Was that a urine exam?

17 A. Pardon me?

18 Q. A urine test?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. Where did you have to do that?

21 A. It was really close to the mall, right

22 there.

23 Q. Did you do it that night?

24 A. Yes, I did it. And they time-stamped it.

25 Q. Where was your husband at that time?

26 A. At that time, I believe he’s still in jail.

27 Q. All right. The kids were where?

28 A. The kids are with my parents. 6749



1 Q. Do you know approximately what time it was?

2 A. At this time?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No, I don’t. I know it was right before I

5 ended up going to Kaiser.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. Which that was also time-stamped.

8 Q. Did you have a car at that time?

9 A. At that time, yes, it was a mini-van.

10 Q. And where was the vehicle?

11 A. The vehicle was at the -- still at the

12 shopping mall.

13 Q. All right. And then where did you go with

14 the -- did you get the vehicle at some point in

15 time?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. I believe that I walked over and went and

18 picked it up myself.

19 Do you know approximately what time it was

20 that David Arvizo was released from custody that

21 night?

22 A. No, I don’t. I just know that it was

23 minutes before we went to Kaiser.

24 Q. All right. Did you, in fact, go to Kaiser

25 that night?

26 A. Yes, I did.

27 Q. Did you do that soon after David Arvizo’s

28 release? 6750



1 A. Yes, like that.

2 Q. Did he inflict any injury on you at any time

3 from the time he was released from custody to the

4 time --

5 A. No.

6 Q. -- that you arrived at Kaiser Hospital?

7 A. No, he didn’t.

8 Q. All right. And did they attend to your

9 injuries when you got to Kaiser Hospital?

10 A. Does that mean like --

11 Q. Did they treat your injuries at that time?

12 A. Yes, they did. They did.

13 Q. You said your kids were picked up by your

14 parents at that time?

15 A. Yes, at the shopping mall. They didn’t even

16 take them -- the police wanted to release the

17 children right there to my parents. They didn’t

18 want to take them into custody.

19 Q. Were either of your children injured in the

20 course of that altercation?

21 A. Yes, they were.

22 Q. Which children were injured?

23 A. They broke Gavin’s arm. They gave him a

24 black eye. Star, they gave him a concussion.

25 That’s the best I can remember.

26 Q. Was there a settlement on behalf of Star and

27 Gavin?

28 A. What does that mean? 6751



1 Q. In other words, did they receive money?

2 A. Yes, they did.

3 Q. Do you recall how much they received,

4 approximately?

5 A. No, I don’t recall. I’ve never touched it.

6 It’s still sitting there.

7 Q. I believe you just said there was an amount

8 of money that was received by both Star and Gavin.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You don’t recall at this moment how much

11 that was?

12 A. No, I don’t. That’s --

13 Q. Did one receive more than the other?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was that reflective of the injury?

16 A. I think so.

17 Q. Which one? Which of your children received

18 the greater amount?

19 A. Gavin did.

20 Q. I think you said it went into a bank

21 account; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And is it still there?

24 A. It is still there.

25 Q. How long will it remain in that bank

26 account?

27 A. Till they become adults.

28 Q. I’d like to show you two exhibits, please, 6752



1 No. 820 and 821.

2 Take a look at those two exhibits, if you

3 would.

4 A. Okay. Okay.

5 Q. Are those exhibits familiar to you?

6 A. Yes, they are.

7 Q. All right. And do they reflect the amount

8 of money that was received by each of those two

9 children?

10 A. Yes. It is correct.

11 Q. Can you tell us, then, how much money it was

12 for each one?

13 A. Gavin is -- to the dollar? To the penny?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. As long as it’s in front of you.

17 A. Okay. Gavin is 25,595. And Star’s is

18 $8,576.

19 Q. Have either you or your husband had -- your

20 ex-husband David had access to that money at all?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And that’s per the conditions of that

23 settlement; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, this is correct.

25 Q. Tell us how much you received on that.

26 A. Myself?

27 Q. Yes.

28 A. The best I can remember, myself, I received 6753



1 32,000.

2 Q. All right. And how much did David receive?

3 A. David received 5,000.

4 Q. All right. Now, the total judgment on that

5 was something over 150,000; is that right?

6 A. This is correct.

7 Q. What happened to the rest of the money?

8 A. The attorneys -- it went all to the

9 attorneys.

10 Q. Were there medical expenses as well?

11 A. I think so. I -- it came -- it was

12 disbursed from the law office. What they did with

13 it, they would know best.

14 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness, Your

15 Honor?

16 THE COURT: Yes.

17 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I’m showing you a collection

18 of documents that are numbered 819 for

19 identification. 819, a series of photographs. And

20 there’s actually 19 pages in here. Excuse me, 16

21 pages. 16 pages.

22 Take a look at that, if you could, and let’s

23 start with each one of those pages. Can you tell us

24 the content of the subject matter of that first

25 page?

26 A. It is me. I do have a bra on. And it shows

27 bruises on my arms and my legs.

28 Q. Go ahead and go to the next page. And the 6754



1 two top photographs are who, please?

2 A. They’re both of me.

3 Q. And they show injuries where?

4 A. On my legs, on my arms, and then wearing

5 that thing on my wrist.

6 Q. And the thing on your wrist is a brace?

7 A. Yes. First it was the cast, and then it

8 went -- they did that after they cleaned it up.

9 Q. Okay. And then the two bottom photographs

10 on the second page of this exhibit.

11 A. They’re both of Gavin.

12 Q. Okay. And what injury did Gavin have?

13 A. He had a broken arm.

14 Q. Okay. Was it at his elbow?

15 A. I think it was his elbow. I’m -- or up

16 here. I don’t remember very clear. It was either

17 up here or his elbow.

18 Q. Okay. How old was Gavin?

19 A. The best I can remember, six or seven.

20 Q. Okay. Go to the next page, please.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. No. 3 reflects what, the two top photos?

23 A. It’s of my hand, and myself sitting down.

24 Q. And the two bottom photos?

25 A. Of me with the bruises.

26 Q. All right. And the bruises are where in

27 those photos?

28 A. My arms and my legs. 6755



1 Q. Go to the next page, please, No. 4. And

2 where are the bruises in these four photographs?

3 A. On my arms and my legs.

4 Q. The front or back of your legs?

5 A. The back.

6 Q. All right. Go to the next page, please,

7 No. 5, and tell us what these photographs depict.

8 A. They’re of my legs.

9 Q. No. 6, page six, what do these photographs

10 depict?

11 A. Still on my legs.

12 Q. And these are bruises on the bottom and top

13 portion of your leg?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Go to the next page, No. 7. What does that

16 reflect?

17 A. Bruises still on my arms and legs.

18 Q. All right. Next page, please.

19 A. And I think this is Gavin’s arm up here.

20 Q. So on page seven of the four photographs in

21 that -- on that -- depicted on that page, the upper

22 right, you believe, is Gavin’s elbow?

23 A. I think so.

24 Q. All right. Go to the next.

25 A. Okay.

26 Q. Four pictures on page eight, what are they?

27 A. They’re of myself.

28 Q. Okay. And the two top ones, or the top one 6756



1 on the left, what does that depict?

2 A. The top left is a full back side of how I

3 looked.

4 Q. And it shows bruising where?

5 A. On the back of my arms, and the back of my

6 legs.

7 Q. Okay. And on the right side at the top,

8 what does that depict?

9 A. My arms from the front side.

10 Q. Okay. And then the bottom picture on the

11 left?

12 A. Of my wrist.

13 Q. And then the picture on the right?

14 A. Of my face, right cheek.

15 Q. What kind of bruise did you have on your

16 right cheek?

17 A. Like a -- like this.

18 Q. All right. Go to the next page. This is

19 page nine. Let’s turn it on its side. Tell us

20 what -- the picture of the little boy, which little

21 boy is that?

22 A. This is Gavin.

23 Q. And that shows his arm?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then the two other pictures?

26 A. This was the scrape that he had on this arm,

27 and it shows his black eye.

28 Q. Okay. And then the other two pictures 6757



1 apparently are -- no, go back.

2 A. Oh.

3 Q. On the same page, which is page nine, there

4 are two other pictures. That is of you?

5 A. Of my legs.

6 Q. And then the four photographs on page ten?

7 A. They’re all the same. And they’re just

8 showing my upper arms.

9 Q. Okay. And page 11?

10 A. My upper half and one of full body.

11 Q. Okay. So these are --

12 A. Showing bruises.

13 Q. -- bruises, upper chest and your upper arms?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Page 12?

16 A. A front view of me.

17 Q. Okay. Page 13, one photograph.

18 A. Of Gavin.

19 Q. And that’s his arm?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Page 14?

22 A. I think this is because it’s showing a

23 scrape on that arm.

24 Q. Okay. Page 14, four photographs of what?

25 A. Of right here.

26 Q. The wrist?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Page 15? 6758



1 A. My son Gavin.

2 Q. That’s Gavin?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. With his arm?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. And finally, page 16?

7 A. This is Gavin with his broken arm.

8 Q. All right. When were those photographs

9 taken?

10 A. Immediately.

11 Q. By “immediately” what do you mean? That

12 day, or the next day, or when?

13 A. I think it was -- the best I can remember,

14 I think it was -- I think it was the next day right

15 after we had taken -- I think it was after the boys

16 had received medical services. I think that’s the

17 best I can remember.

18 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I’m going to move to

19 introduce these photographs, which is Exhibit 819,

20 into evidence at this time.

21 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.

22 THE COURT: They’re admitted.

23 MR. ZONEN: May I have just a moment,

24 please?

25 Your Honor, I’d like to publish these

26 photographs, or some of them. I’d like to publish

27 these photographs at this time.

28 THE COURT: All right. 6759



1 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Let’s start with the two on

2 the top of page two of this exhibit. And Miss

3 Arvizo, go ahead and look at this. These are the

4 top of page two. And describe for us, please, what

5 we’re looking at, the injuries. First start with

6 the pictures on the left.

7 A. That’s me. This is me sitting down and

8 showing the bruises from -- from this, this part

9 right here, my legs and my lower half.

10 Q. All right. And the picture on the right?

11 A. Yes, my legs.

12 Q. It’s page six of that exhibit. Tell us

13 specifically what we’re looking at here, please.

14 A. Kind of like a little diagonal view of my

15 legs.

16 Q. And that shows the bruises where on your

17 legs?

18 A. On my -- the front part of my calf area.

19 Q. All right. And on both legs?

20 A. Yes. On both legs. And you can see a

21 little bit of the back part of my thighs.

22 Q. Also page six on the lower left-hand corner.

23 Can you describe what we’re looking at in that

24 photograph?

25 A. Bruising on the back side of me. And

26 there’s that -- the thing over my hand.

27 Q. And on your left hand?

28 A. Yes. 6760



1 Q. And this is page number seven. On page

2 number seven, would you tell us, please, what we’re

3 looking at on that photograph?

4 A. That’s from a sitting position, I think it’s

5 di -- I think it’s diagonal in the other direction

6 of the bruises on my arms and my legs.

7 Q. On both legs -- both arms?

8 A. Both arms.

9 Q. And both legs?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Exhibit No. 8, No. 8 of this exhibit, tell

12 us what that one is, please.

13 A. This is a -- a back side of me. And then

14 you can see a little bit of the -- of the underarm,

15 showing that, showing my right arm.

16 Q. And what are we looking at on this picture?

17 A. I had -- I had bruising and a little bit of

18 swelling right here, my right cheek.

19 Q. And that’s also Exhibit No. 8.

20 THE COURT: I think you’re referring to the

21 page number.

22 MR. ZONEN: Yes, page number. Exactly.

23 Q. That was who now?

24 A. This is Gavin.

25 Q. And he had his hand at that time in a sling;

26 is that right?

27 A. Yes, he did.

28 Q. And a cast? 6761



1 A. He had a cast.

2 Q. We can have the lights back on.

3 You were asked some questions about a car

4 that had belonged to Chris Tucker. Did Chris Tucker

5 ever actually offer you a vehicle?

6 A. Chris Tucker gave it to me and the kids as a

7 Christmas present from him and Aja. It was Aja’s

8 old car, but Chris had taken the kids to buy Aja a

9 birthday present, as a surprise birthday present,

10 and he had the kids pick Aja’s new color of her car

11 for her birthday.

12 Q. Now, did you actually ever drive that car?

13 A. I never drove that car.

14 Q. Did you ever take possession of it?

15 A. I never took possession of the car.

16 Q. Do you remember when it was that he offered

17 you the car or gave you the car?

18 A. It was for Christmastime. And he hadn’t

19 seen me and the kids, neither did Aja, so the first

20 time he got to see us was at his home, and that’s

21 when he gave it to me.

22 Q. Did -- you say he gave it to you. But how

23 is it you never took possession of it?

24 A. Well, because he says, “Here’s the keys.

25 And this is yours and the kids’ Christmas present.”

26 Q. And --

27 A. It was Aja’s old car.

28 Q. But tell me why you didn’t drive away with 6762



1 it.

2 A. Because. In Miami -- remember way in the

3 beginning I had told you that I had tied a garbage

4 bag which I had placed my Timberland shoes inside a

5 Turnberry bag and I tied it so tight to my red

6 sports bag that the only way you can take this bag

7 off was by ripping it? That’s it. And that

8 disappeared. I didn’t see it till --

9 Q. Are you telling us that had the keys in it?

10 A. Yes, that had the keys in it.

11 Q. All right. Now, again, that was early

12 February when you went to Miami?

13 A. That’s correct.

14 Q. Where was the car between Christmas and

15 early February?

16 A. At Aja’s house.

17 Q. All right. Did you -- you took the keys,

18 but you never got the car?

19 A. That’s correct. On that day was when Chris

20 had told me that Aja and Chris had been looking for

21 us to give us a Christmas present.

22 Q. All right. So when exactly was it that they

23 gave you the keys?

24 A. The day I went to Chris’s house.

25 Q. To go to Miami?

26 A. To go to Miami, yes.

27 Q. Okay. All right. So it was not a Christmas

28 gift to you. It was a Christmas gift to Aja? 6763



1 A. No.

2 Q. The new car?

3 A. No. I don’t know if I explained it

4 correctly. Aja had gotten a brand-new Mercedes for

5 her birthday. This was now Aja’s old car, which was

6 just sitting in her -- in her driveway. So Chris

7 and Aja decided that they wanted to give me and the

8 children this car for Christmas, but they were

9 unable to locate us.

10 Q. All right. It wasn’t until the --

11 A. Until --

12 Q. He went to Miami?

13 A. Yes, that’s correct.

14 Q. So the keys you took, but you never got the

15 car?

16 A. Exactly.

17 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with either

18 Aja or Chris Tucker after you got back from Miami --

19 A. Well --

20 Q. -- about the car?

21 A. With Chris, never again.

22 Q. You never had another conversation with

23 Chris?

24 A. I never had.

25 Q. And with Aja?

26 A. With Aja, I think so. I think it was --

27 I think it was, yeah, I was able to tell her, “Thank

28 you.” 6764



1 Q. Did you ever see the keys again?

2 A. I never saw the keys again.

3 Q. You never took the car, never drove the car?

4 A. No, they disappeared with my garbage bag.

5 Q. Now, the vehicle that was a gift to Gavin

6 from Mr. Jackson, do you know the difference between

7 a Bronco and a Blazer?

8 A. No, I don’t.

9 Q. If I were to ask you to describe one against

10 the other, would you know?

11 A. No, I wouldn’t be able.

12 Q. Do you remember what color it was?

13 A. I do remember that. It was white.

14 Q. Do you know what the letters “SUV” stand

15 for?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. If somebody were to say “SUV” to you, does

18 that --

19 A. The best I can --

20 Q. Hold on.

21 Does that conjure up in your mind some kind

22 of a vehicle?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. SUV?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. What kind of a vehicle?

27 A. Kind of like a half truck, half pickup with

28 enclosure, like a camper, all fused together. 6765



1 Q. Okay. Was it that kind of vehicle that Mr.

2 Jackson gave you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know the difference between a GMC and

5 a Ford?

6 A. No, I don’t.

7 Q. Do you know what the letters “GMC” stand

8 for?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did somebody tell you it was a Bronco?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who?

13 A. David did.

14 Q. All right. Now, this car actually did come

15 into your family’s possession; is that right?

16 A. Yes, it did.

17 Q. Did you ever get any documentation on it; in

18 other words, a registration of some kind, or a pink

19 slip?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know what -- when I say “pink slip,”

22 do you know what that means?

23 A. Yes, I do know that.

24 Q. And registration, do you know what that

25 means?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Have you ever actually bought a car

28 yourself? 6766



1 A. No. Let me see. I think a long, long, long

2 time ago, I may have been a co-signer, I don’t know,

3 of a red Nissan Sentra.

4 Q. Did you ever actually walk into a car

5 dealership by yourself and pick out a car and

6 purchase it?

7 A. By myself, never.

8 Q. On this particular case, I asked you about

9 documentation, a pink slip or a registration, and

10 you said, I think, they did not give you that; is

11 that right?

12 A. Yes, that’s correct.

13 Q. So you were talking about a document with a

14 VIN number on it.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was that?

17 A. Okay. I had -- there was a -- like a long

18 number thing, and I had written it down on a piece

19 of paper.

20 Q. So you wrote the number yourself?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And tell me why you did this.

23 A. Because -- just so I know that that was the

24 car that belonged to that. That’s all.

25 Q. But you did that at a time that you had the

26 car in your possession?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. All right. How long was -- 6767



1 THE COURT: All right. Counsel, we’ll end

2 for today.

3 Remember the adminitions. See you tomorrow

4 morning at 8:30.

5 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)

6 --o0o--

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28 6768



1 REPORTER’S CERTIFICATE

2

3

4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )

5 CALIFORNIA, )

6 Plaintiff, )

7 -vs- ) No. 1133603

8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )

9 Defendant. )

10

11

12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR

13 #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby certify:

14 That the foregoing pages 6603 through 6768

15 contain a true and correct transcript of the

16 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled

17 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing at

18 said proceedings on April 18, 2005, and thereafter

19 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided

20 transcription under my direction.

21 DATED: Santa Maria, California,

22 April 18, 2005.

23

24

25

26

27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304

28 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 6769



